195: "We’ve Always Done It This Way." The Small Church Lie That Keeps Us Stuck | with Ebonie Mukasa

Tradition can be beautiful — but when “we’ve always done it this way” becomes the default answer, it stops being wisdom and starts being a wall. 

In this episode, we talk about why resistant church culture burns women out, silences new ideas, and quietly drives people away. And honestly? It’s costing us more than we realize.

What you’ll hear in this episode:

• Why “we’ve always done it this way” feels safe — but slowly kills momentum
• How resistant culture silences women’s voices and fresh ideas
• The emotional cost of keeping peace instead of naming truth
• Why new doesn’t have to mean reckless — it can mean healthier
• Hopeful ways to shift culture without losing your mind (or your faith)

Connect with Ebonie Mukasa:
www.eboniemukasa.com

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Transcript

Laurie Graham: 0:01

Hey, welcome to the small church ministry podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host. Laurie Graham, let's dive in. You. You. Hey friends, welcome back to the small church ministry podcast. Now we talk a lot about church culture around here, and not just how the culture shapes us, but how we shape the church culture. We shape our cultures every time we show up. This is one of the themes we're talking about actually at the lead well conference coming up at the end of the month. I'll let you know more about that before we get off there, but we wanted to jump in because we've got a big topic to talk about today. Culture is not an accident. It is built by our choices. It's even built by our silences, and yes, even those moments that we shrug off and just say we've always done it this way. That's what we're talking about today. And let's be honest, this phrase might sound harmless, but when it comes it like becomes the default answer a lot in small churches. It stops being wisdom, and it really starts being a wall that just shuts things down. So today, we're going to be diving into that phrase, talking about resistant church culture and how specifically, and this is where we're going to have a little fun. Specifically burns women out so the lead well conference at the end of the month. Get your free ticket. Small church summits.com. But we're literally talking to women in small churches. And the phrase we've always done it this way tends to silence new ideas, women who are excited, women who have things to say, and it even drives people away. So I think it's time to realize that that phrase we've always done it this way, is costing us more than we realize. I am really excited to have ebony Mikasa back on the podcast. You we did a podcast show a couple, maybe even two years ago. Now ebony, I don't even know, but she's joining us again for this conversation. Ebony, this is a couple things I love about you, ebony. I didn't say I was gonna share this, but I think you have a really powerful way of naming things that a lot of us feel, that we don't always put words to. And I think you are one of those women when I think of the deep, intentional change, not just changing things up for the sake of changing things up, like not just a new idea or a new way to decorate or a new program, but you have that depth about you that I love. Ebony has been in the trenches of ministry for many years. You'll hear more about her story as we go through just with the things we're talking about today, but we're going to dive into Episode 195 we've always done it this way, the small church lie that keeps us stuck. You ready, ebony? I'm ready. Okay, welcome, welcome. Okay. We're going to start with the obvious question, why does the phrase we've always done it this way? Why does it feel so safe in small churches? Ebony and I talked about this a little bit before we went live, and we actually talked about, does it feel safe? Why do we say it? So I want you to just talk about that a little bit ebony, and also what, what's the hidden cost of leaning on this phrase?

Ebonie Mukasa: 3:12

You know, I It's such a, it's such a, like you said, it's one of those go to responses, and the reason is because it's an easy, simple response to just kind of get past a question or an idea that isn't ready to be digested, approached, conceived, executed, financed, resourced, you name it. You There it is, right. It also is a response to protect position or power or current ideas or the popularity of a particular a way of doing things, or a particular event or ministry. And so it really is, I think it's one of those responses that's like a shield. And so the first thing I want to say is to anybody who has gotten that response, I want you to put on your grace hat. Okay? Because it's typically a response to someone who doesn't have an answer. Either they don't have the answer, they don't have the power to answer it, and and it's just your idea may be bigger than they think is the church or the ministry or the they themselves have capacity for. And it's just like a quick rebuff. So yeah, yeah, I my my response to those type of responses in the in the past, I've had those, not often, but before is, you know, when I was younger, it was an offense, oh my

Laurie Graham: 4:47

gosh. How daring. How dare they right

Ebonie Mukasa: 4:51

an offense. But as I've gotten older, and I've been on the side of servant leadership, which where the volunteerism or servant leadership and. Your congregation, and also on the side of leadership, right from leadership, from leading a ministry, or being the pastor, planting a church and being, you know, the pastor of the congregation. I've been on both sides of those, and now I have a bigger, a broader view of what what that response means.

Laurie Graham: 5:22

Yeah, I love what you said. Just at the very beginning, you said this response comes up often when people aren't ready for the idea. And I think that was honestly just really brilliant, because a lot of times we think they don't like the idea, and maybe they don't, you know, sometimes all of our ideas aren't liked, but I love that you said they're not ready for it. And that could be financial it could be too much of a leap. You know, psychologically with our beliefs, it could be that we think it's going to fail. It could be that, you know, whatever it might be. But I love the thought of that, of not being ready for it. And I also love that visual when you said it's like a shield, because when we hold up a shield. It's because we're trying to protect ourselves. And again, this is you ebony like, like, meeting of the minds and the hearts on this one, because it's like we've got to have compassion on both sides. Now, I didn't tell you we're going to talk about this one, but it popped in my head while I'm looking at you as we're talking. So you and I are both idea people, like, we're not short of ideas, you know. But I was trying to think, as you were talking, if there's ever been a time when I have said to somebody else, we've always done it this way, or we won't. We're, you know, we never do it that way. And I don't know that I've phrased it like that, but I do have things that I like it the way I've done it, and I don't want to try it that way, because I can see how that isn't going to work. And so I think for me, it was kind of good to think, yeah, I'm not immune to this either. Like, I am not immune to wanting to hang on to the way I've done things. Yes, even if I think it's better, right? Like, sometimes we have those things right, and sometimes it is better. But yes, you know that phrase is dangerous,

Ebonie Mukasa: 7:00

it is dangerous. And I think that's a phrase that it's, it will be great even as the you know, as you share this and you get some feedback from you know, those who are hearing to let's, let's put some new language out there. So it's for, for the leader, or for the person who is the wine receipt on the receiving end of these ideas, so that you're not shutting people down because you put a second part to this question, and it's about, what are we losing? And the truth is, you're losing the very oftentimes, the answer to prayer that you're praying about, you're praying to God, and you're saying, Lord, we need more you know, we need a new, more servant leaders, or we need more compassion, or we need in the in the response of compassion, or we need x, y, z, whatever it is you're praying about. And you have people coming. God is sending people. There are people in your congregation who God is ministering to their hearts. He is igniting their gifts. He is putting a passion and even sometimes a burden on them. And then they're coming to you with with out of obedience, out of obedience to the assignment or the the idea or the offer that God has put in their hearts, and then you're rebuffing them. And so what? What are we losing? One of the biggest things that we could be losing is the resource and the response and the answer to prayer that God is is sending us in our Yeah, we've always done it that way. Yeah.

Laurie Graham: 8:37

Well, I think, you know, as you were saying that, I'm thinking of, you know, the old story with the family that's stuck on the top of the roof, and the floods are coming up, and they're praying that God would save them. And the boat comes along. They're like, No, no, I don't need the boat. God's gonna save me. And the helicopter comes along, no, no, no, God's gonna save me. And they you know, And here God was sending them all these answers. And so, just to flip this a little bit ebony so most people who are listening to the podcast right now. They're the ones like you and me who like we've got the ideas. We hate it when people say we've always done it this way. So can we talk about that and how we should respond to that? Like, how do we respond? How do we flip the script on that phrase when we have an idea, or somebody around us has an idea and we want to explore it, and somebody's saying, we've always done it this way. Because I think we can shut those people down too, right? Like the person who has the fear, the person is saying we've always done it this way, we can get upset. We can roll our eyes when they're not looking. We can be like, oh, there's that person again. And that is not healthy. This is not the community God calls us to. So how do we remain in community? Have a mix of people on our teams with this resistance, like, like, let's just play it out. So pretend you just came to me with an idea ebony, and I said, you know, we've always done it this way. I don't think that's going to work. We've always done it this way.

Ebonie Mukasa: 10:33

You know, I think it's important to. Is that you when we approach things, and as I people who offer ideas, right? People who, because when you have an idea, you typically have the strategy to write, you have the rollout of what this might look like. And I think one of the things is I do three T's, and so I'm gonna, I'm getting to the answer, but there's three important T's, and the first is timing, right? The best time to offer a war, a wonderful idea, is when there is room, and there's a space to be able to give the person who you're asking, or you're presenting a dual a pause and let them digest a bit, right? Yeah, I never swear hue. I've learned the hard way to never share the full vision, never show, share the full picture. Like, let's start a missions trip every single year to Uganda, where we are building houses, and we're setting up orphanages. That's too much. It's too much,

Laurie Graham: 11:42

and too much for most people, like, I'd be with you ebony, I'm going to Uganda tomorrow. Like, I'm like, Yeah, let's

Ebonie Mukasa: 11:47

do it, right? But for the average leader, right? Yeah, that's too much, right? Because they are. They already have the full vision and all the stuff that's behind the scenes going on, yeah? So timing, and timing includes audience, right? You never want to present me personally and my, my, uh, especially a brand new idea, or an idea that is that will challenge, okay, so not an idea that's like, you know, can we do, uh, the Can we add envelopes to the back of the, you know, chair, so that we can have quick access to them? You know? Yeah, something that's but a really, the ideas that are going to shift programming resources, that are going to cost, that are going to, you know, we're going to have to reallocate funds. We're going to have to do all those huge ideas. Audience is important, because you never want to put someone on the spot and then have them be defensive, and then have them also have to save face, right? Yeah, so tell me, and then temperament, a big thing is, why are you presenting this idea right? Is it a critique, or is it really to to help grow and to help do something dynamic and help meet a need that you're seeing that's not being taken care of, right?

Laurie Graham: 13:10

And, yeah, versus, I don't like your idea, here's a better one, because I think a lot of times we do approach like that, and that is a quick shutdown,

Ebonie Mukasa: 13:17

a quick shutdown, right? So, so these are some of these are things that only you can answer, right? And then you're going to have to be disciplined, to to not be not prompt, not respond, if you are in a bad place, if you're frustrated, if you see, you know, and then you you want to offer it, don't offer it, then it's not necessarily a bad idea, but the where it's coming from is not a good place, even in from you, right? Yeah. And then tone, how do we offer this information? How do we how do we say it? What do we say, right? And so when someone says something to me now, when, when, when I have an idea to present now I think of all those things, I never present huge shifting ideas in front of anyone. It's always a one on one. It's always one on one, because I don't want to put them on the spot. I don't want cheerleaders. I don't want a bunch of people say, Oh, that's a great idea. Oh, that's good. Oh, and because, truthfully, it can come across as if you've already rallied people, yeah, like a campaign that, and you've taken your leadership unaware, you know, and then definitely temperament, I make sure I'm this is something that is not just going to benefit me, but it must benefit others in a broad way. And then my tone, you know, I can get excited, as you can tell, you know, I'm trying to monitor myself already

Laurie Graham: 14:44

me too excited

Ebonie Mukasa: 14:47

and excitement when, when someone is presenting something new to you, and even this is my own response to myself, is The put off. It's too much like too much excitement. It turns me off because I can't hear you're, you're, you're coming at me strong. And yes, you're excited, but I'm trying to understand and and we're in the middle of the Christmas party, and you're coming, bringing me something about the Women's Conference. You see what I'm saying. So if someone says something to you that this is too much right, like they say this, this is how we've always do done it, I would say that there is one of those factors that's off,

Laurie Graham: 15:31

timing, temperament, tone, yes,

Ebonie Mukasa: 15:33

because there it most you. Times is timing, yeah, yeah, most times it's time. So I would re approach it, yeah, and I would re approach it in a way that's more bite sized. I would offer it as a help, not a challenge, like I'm trying to now take over the Women's Conference, because I think I could do better, you know? Yeah, do you see what I'm saying? I don't want

Laurie Graham: 16:00

to, yeah. Oh, totally. I think everything you're saying is so important and and it matters. Like, sometimes we get so frustrated, like, have this great idea, and first off, any of my great ideas get better when other people are with me. Like, even the best of my ideas, like, it's never the same. It doesn't come off exactly how I wanted, and I have a lot of good ideas, but when I have other input and I can bring people along, it honestly gets a lot better. I never think I'm the smartest one in the room. I never think I have the whole picture, even, even if I feel like God's calling me, you know, to do something to the best of my knowledge like so I think it's so much better when we have people coming with us, and that's why what you just said matters, because we can't dismiss, well, we can, but I don't recommend dismissing people who say we've always done it this way. Like, that's not our call as the body of Christ to say, well, those people aren't with the program. I'm going to move through it right? Like, like, I don't think that gives us what God really has for us. Like, I think the body of Christ, I think we're better off when we're diverse. And so I had another thing I thought of when you were talking about timing, temperament and tone. By the way, that's brilliant. So thank you for sharing that. When I thought about, like, how do we change a culture? Like, if we're in the middle of this culture, that where it's normal? Well, people say we've always done it this way. I think it's really important that we bring this learning to a broader audience. Like, sometimes we like, oh, we know how to do this now, we heard the podcast, or we read the blog post, or we went to the conference, and it's almost like we're putting we're using techniques on people or strategies on people. I say, bring them into this conversation. Like, if you've got a team or your whole church, or your friendship group, or the small group you're in, if you have this like as a group, say, hey, you know this phrase. We've always done it this way. This is what I heard about it. Let's talk about it. You know, break it open and say, how do you guys feel about that phrase? You know, I don't like that phrase. Well, I'm okay with that. How else could we say it? Could we even just, like, make it a game whenever we feel like saying that, or maybe when we hear it, or we say it in our group, what if we said, where is that coming from? How are you feeling? Why do we, you know, like to bring like, the learning like, I just think we all should be leaders. We all should be developing personally. We all should be growing in skills. And sometimes I think, as leaders in churches, whether you have a title or no title, we keep like the knowledge to ourselves, like we know this about human behavior. We know this about you know. So what do you think of that?

Ebonie Mukasa: 18:30

I agree absolutely. I think you'll be amazed at the fact that, really people don't. I always try to, I always try to lean to the side of grace, because I haven't always been a gracious person, being a, you know, someone who has ideas, executes them, and just move up, moving through the next, you know, on to the next, and and they don't know another thing to say either, right there. They would love to not say it, I'm sure. And they would love for to not rebuff. And they would love to be able to get down to the what they really want to say. A lot of times, it's lack of vocabulary, lack of being able to express, lack of, you know, and so for sure, having this conversation is so essential, especially if it's redundant in your in your congregation and that, and truthfully that, saying, if it's common in your in your community, something is amiss. And when I and when I say that, it means something is someone is overwhelmed. Someone is doing it all. Someone is, you know, you're going to the person, and the reason why they're saying that is because it's like another thing that someone wants to start. And I've done this happen in my own community, in my own church, where I've, I've we my husband, I have just had a conversation with everyone. Say, listen, the next idea that you bring, you have to be willing to head it up like you can't come. To bring this dynamic idea. We put resources behind it, we program it, we promote it. We get people participating. It's becoming a huge

Laurie Graham: 20:19

it's a capacity

Ebonie Mukasa: 20:20

issue. It's meeting a need, even like now you have a community of people that you're serving with this, yeah, and then people bail, the very people who had the idea no longer show up. They no longer support and all of that. And now it's another ministry or. Or activity or outreach that now, let's say the pastor themselves, or the pastoral team, or whoever, the few volunteers now they're having to do something else, right?

Laurie Graham: 20:49

And that speaks to the timing, part of the timing of that, and our capacities. So, yeah, this, we've done it this way. You know, I think it's also really important to understand, like you just talked about, some of the reasons why we say this. It protects us, right? It protects us from, you know, getting beyond our capacity. And I think that sometimes I get into some shame spirals about myself, right, like when my brain just kind of doesn't want to work, or whatever. And, and I, I've really come to this understanding which is totally true and totally scientific, the way God created us to be. Our brains want to conserve energy. They they want us to be safe. Our brains are constantly trying to keep us safe and help us conserve energy and all this kind of stuff. And so new ideas for our brain. It's actually very natural to to get scared of a new idea, or to shut down or not want to do it. And so if anybody's listening and you're like, Oh, I say that, or I don't always want to do new ideas, or things, like ebony just gave a great example of how sometimes we don't need to chase after every idea, right? Sometimes that's not really for us. And so as we're talking and unpacking this, you know, we've always done it this way. Phrase, I'm so excited as we're getting closer and closer to the lead Well, conference happening on September 27 like because we're a bunch of women who are going to be talking about the dynamics of being women in small churches. Yes, most of us carry a lot. We we come up with all sorts of or encounter all sorts of dynamics in teams, with groups of people, and some things, this is where I want to go with this. Are really specific with women. And I was looking at what we're going to talk about Ebony and I'm like, why does this affect women differently than men? So because so we're going to we're talking generalities. Y'all like, I know there are exceptions, okay, but there are generalities. And what I was thinking about in my head, because many people will say this shuts down the voices of women. Women get silenced by the phrase, we've always done it this way. Well, why does it shut down women and not men? Now I'm not saying it only shuts down women, but when you were talking I was thinking about sales and how men, statistically are better at sales, and women are more scared of sales, because we don't like to hurt people's feelings. It's like, oh, I don't want to push that person. Oh, I don't want to blah, blah, blah. And when people say no to us, we tend to take it more personally. I know men who are on sales, they don't care. When people say no, they don't care like, literally, the men who are good at sales that I have talked to, and I've talked to them, they don't care when people and they're like, Why do you care if they said no to you? You don't even know that person. I'm like, I don't know. I just feel bad. So anyway, doesn't that dynamic come in when we have an idea?

Ebonie Mukasa: 23:31

It does, it does. And you know, it's so important that we it. This is a hard one, and it sounds so weird to say this, I think, but it's so important that we keep our identity anchored in Christ, yeah.

Laurie Graham: 23:51

I mean, it's not, and that's such a phrase. Like, that's such a phrase, right? Like, it's like, almost one of those, you know, frosting phrases. But there's so much depth to it.

Ebonie Mukasa: 23:59

Because when, when you get a no, you think that it's you, you think that it's person. They don't like me. They think I'm his. They don't think I'm this, they don't think I'm qualified, they don't think I have the look. Because, you know, there's some congregations like I remember when I used to do worship at a young adults ministry. And at some point, like my look wasn't the look for the like they were going the younger trendy look. And so, you know, I mean, you have all sorts of things that a no can mean to you. It would again, you know, it can trigger all sorts of past things and and we just have to keep our identity in Christ and I, and, you know, talking about men who, my husband used to sell insurance, a life insurance. We're in North Carolina, and he was another person who, I mean, he can rumble into. How many knows did you get today? 50, what?

Unknown: 24:57

How did you I would quit? I'll tell I would just

Ebonie Mukasa: 25:00

quit. I mean, but it's because, truthfully, he's not thinking about himself in the he's not putting himself in the ask, and he's not putting himself in the the rejection. He doesn't see himself in that. And that's because his that's not his identity. And I encourage women as well, that, as you know, our ideas there God is amazing that he gives us so many but that you are not your idea, right? Right? If your idea wasn't received, it's not you or the person. And even if. It is, even if it is that they don't think you're the one, don't allow that to define you and to send you off on on a tangent that that impairs relationships in your congregation and things like that. But you know, one thing I really want, and I know you're going to transition us through a lot of this, the the talk that we're having today, but I do want to acknowledge that there are some real situations going on in churches and in congregations that the suggestions are coming because they see others are are either left out or there, or there are some harm, whether that's not physical, maybe, but emotional harm or spiritual, even a harm faith, loss of faith, loss of hope, questioning God, some habits, some some things that are being done. And then there are some women, because we're talking to women who see this, I mean intercessors. You're praying. You're in your word. You, you you have, uh, this a gifting that God has just made it so that people approach you and they share with you and they want you know, and this is not gossiping. Now, y'all know I'm funny about that, like I'm not talking about, I'm talking about the real, honest Ministry of prayer and and bearing each other's burdens. And so you're hearing, and you're, you're you're seeing the undercurrents of what's happening in your church, and now you're offering some suggestions, you know, and you are being outright rejected. That's real, and I don't, and so I don't want to glaze over this, yeah, and not acknowledge the fact that there are some who may be listening in who there are some real situations that are happening at your church, and that that whoever is the person to go to, whether that's a ministry leader, whether that's a servant leader, whether it's a staff member of a church. Because sometimes we think this is only like pastoral but it could be like the church Secretary gatekeeping and not getting your letting your calls go through whatever that looks like. Yeah, and you and you're being pushed back, yeah. And so what do you do in those scenarios? And I, and I have to say that, you know, God gives us some real key factors. And when we're dealing with authority, right in the word, when we're dealing with spiritual we don't, we don't act like God is not a God of order. He is and and when we have people who are resistant to wise counsel and functioning Godly counsel, the first and foremost thing we can do is pray, because I'm gonna tell you something. I tell you people do not underestimate prayer, and not just prayer like, Oh, I'm just gonna, like, get in your word and find scripture to stand on, because when you pray according to the Word of God, you're praying according to the will of God, right? And so there's some prayer because there's God says that He has the heart of the king. That means anybody with authority that he had, that you can't there's nothing you can do. He can turn hearts right. He can send others. I i change my prayer strategies that when I'm dealing with resistant people who will not hear me. They won't even entertain my presence. I say, God send another. Send someone else who has the kind of influence, who has the kind of respect that that person will listen to them, right? Yeah. And then guess what? Sometimes you have to ride the wave,

Laurie Graham: 29:39

get the wind. Yeah, you know, when we're talking about, like, this phrase, we've always done it this way. We started the podcast episode talking about church culture, when this becomes part of the culture, you know, and I think what you're talking about right now is so important, because I'm talking about this more and more, but like, the everyday influence that we all have, like so often we throw up our hands, or we roll our eyes, or we go, well, it's just going to be like this, like I don't I'm not in a position of authority or that person or and I just really believe we all influence culture by how we walk in a room and sometimes how we walk out of it, Right? And there's so much humility with this that, you know, and there's two sides, because we've, we've kind of ping pong back and forth, you and I have today, like the being received like we have the idea, and somebody's saying we've always done it that way. And also, even us being like, we don't want that new idea, right? There's, there's two sides of this. But I think more. And just like talking about, like, one idea, and how we have this idea and this has got to get through, or, God told me, or they don't like my idea, I think the bigger picture here is shifting the church culture to be open to new ideas, to to receive things with curiosity and even ourselves when we're resisting an idea. Like, how can we just be curious about that? Like, wow, why don't I like that idea? Or why is this idea so important to me? Like, I think that's part of the culture shift. It's not even just about the idea itself, right? Because God's going to do what he wants, and it takes a long time for a culture to shift. Oh, right. Like it some of our ideas, some of the ideas I know that I believe, are just so awesome. I don't think they'll even happen in my generation. I don't think they'll even happen while I'm alive, but I've shared them with a few people, and someday, you know, I'm not was That's Biblical? Yes, yes, yes. Like, that's so biblical that God's given a vision, and it's generations and generations later. We don't all get to enjoy it, you know, right? But I think there's a little bit of release there that it's not just about this idea. It's about having cultures that are open to respecting and honoring one another, right?

Ebonie Mukasa: 31:47

I agree, and I think it's, you know, culture internally within our churches. We we have our culture in our church, but we are witnessing, and we're receiving people from outside of our church, right? As people come, culture will change,

Laurie Graham: 32:10

yes, if they come, right? Like, I think, I think we're at a point in history, right, right? Like, lot of people aren't coming because we're not willing to do any changing, you

Ebonie Mukasa: 32:21

know? So really, and people are looking for, I mean, we'll talk about, I will have that talk at the conference, but yes, people are coming and and so there has to be a little some shifting there as well. Yeah, um, has new ideas even age like you may have young families coming to a mature church, a mature body and yes, there make, there will have to be some changes. You're not going to always be able to do it that way when you have you know now 40% of your congregation are young families with children, you know, and so, and that's the shift, because they came from the outside. They're coming in. One thing, I think it's important, as you said, about being willing to hear and receive these, these ideas, is that I think, if you're a ministry leader listening into this, you know, challenge yourself to to create a way that people can share ideas with you, that they can and in a awesome, easy, you know, maybe it's suggestion cards, I don't know. Maybe it's a Google form, quick and easy. Maybe, you know, whatever that looks like for you within your capacity, what you can manage. You know, every we're talking to small churches, so I'm not saying go get another app or something like that, if that's outside your budget, and things like that. But, you know, make yourself, train yourself to be receptive. Yeah, you know, Isaiah, 4319, what is that Scripture say? You know, it talks that God says he's doing a new thing, and then he asks a question, do you perceive it? Yeah. And so God, God gives you doing a new thing, he's going to be like, there, like you were just saying, Lord, about just the generations these ideas, and they're, you're, you're not going to you believe in some of the ideas that you, you've had, you're not going to live to see them necessarily right to to be implemented, in fact, because God is doing a new generation, new thing, generation after generation, day after day, hour after hour, and the question is, do you not perceive it? You're the one? Yeah. Blind, right? Yeah. And so as leaders and as ministry leaders, and we need to create a way that helps us see yeah and and that offering that to your your congregants and to your community, to share their ideas that and then that also takes the pressure off of that having to answer right away. You know that whole world, we always that way with that quick response. It kind of takes that away, because people will feel free to, like, share their ideas, and then you get to read them, and you get to go dissect them, and you get to go back to them and say, hey, I want to, can we meet up and talk a. Your idea. You see,

Laurie Graham: 35:39

I love that you just talked about receiving ideas, because wouldn't it be cool to receive ideas without having to judge whether we're going to do it or not? Can we just like, receive the new ideas and just say, hey, we don't have to decide on this today. It doesn't have to happen right now. It might not happen in 20 years, but let's like, receive the ideas. Like, I think that's like, ideas are gifts, whether we do them or not, they're gifts. So we're almost out of time, believe it or not, Ebony like, I'm like, Oh my gosh. And I want to just like, I want to definitely hit, like, some of our favorite points you and I have talked about, because you said things I have never heard before. So I want to make sure to do that. But I also just want to just mention, as we get close to wrapping up, as we're talking about we've always done it this way. We can be the thinkers of this or the receivers of that. That comment is very normal in churches, whether people are saying it out loud, to hang on to how we've done it. You know, whether it's the way we do serve coffee, it's the way we do a women's program, the way we, you know, the timing, the time that our church service meets, right? So this is a very real issue, and the cost, it's hurting us because it shuts down ideas. It actually keeps newer people further away from us. Yes, it does, it does, and it affects our spirits a lot on both ends again, as the person receiving it, the person speaking back, the person sharing and feeling shut down. So this is just a conversation to bring up and like, let's get really practical. Okay, Ebony, I'm going to tell I'm going to share one of the most impactful things from this that I've heard. So think back to the podcast, how the conversation we've had so far, right this episode, and what stands out to you could have been something you shared, could have been something I shared, could have been something that just popped in your head. One of my favorite things was when you talked about timing, timing, temperament and tone, like that. I'm never gonna forget that, that when we're presenting something yes on ourselves, to consider the timing, temperament and tone, and I think it's also a great teaching point to bring to the people that we're serving with, whether it's a team teacher or maybe we have a whole ministry team or a church. I think that's a great thing to teach on when we're talking about this. Yes, what else stood out to you?

Ebonie Mukasa: 37:52

What stood out to me was really just receiving, being willing to hear and to receive and to know that it takes effort. You are not always in a place where you can see the future. You can't right. You're not just because you're the leader, just because you're the pastor, it does not mean that you're going to know it all and that you're going to

Laurie Graham: 38:16

or if you're the volunteer. Sometimes we got, but, you know, like, as of because I'm a volunteer now, like, that's my whole role. I'm a volunteer, yeah, not on staff, you know. And sometimes I have an idea, and I'm like, Oh, this has to, you know, and I'm so disappointed. As a good reminder, like, I don't see the future either, right, right?

Ebonie Mukasa: 38:33

And, and the full picture as well, like, as a volunteer, you have to remember there's a huge picture that you don't see going on to make this ministry and this community thrive and happen every however frequently you meet and etc. So yeah, on both sides of that, that's where grace comes in and some some understanding. And that's why it's so important, I think, to have that way to share ideas. That's, that's yeah, also maybe not face to face. Just send me an email. You know what I'm saying, however that looks Oh, I love it, but yeah, it has to be said, and you have to make it known that you're willing to receive ideas.

Laurie Graham: 39:17

Yeah, yeah. I think this is just an issue, a topic that we should be talking about. Like, we've got to quit ignoring these things that happen in our churches, things that hurt our feelings, things that shut us down, things that shut other people down. If we can, just, like, start making this normal to talk about these things. And honestly, do you think we could just ban the phrase. You know, I have a friend who has littles and she does not allow her children to say the word stupid, like we don't say that. We don't say that word. So can we just start saying we don't say we've always done it this way. We don't say that. We don't

Ebonie Mukasa: 39:51

we can say what problem are are we trying to solve? Or what problem do you see, or what's your suggestion, or what you know,

Laurie Graham: 40:00

yes, and we can say that's a really interesting idea. I don't know if that's for now or not, but let's talk about it, or talk about it. What makes you excited about that idea?

Ebonie Mukasa: 40:09

I love that one. I love that one like and don't say it in a sarcastic way.

Laurie Graham: 40:13

Remember? Tone? Yep. Tone. Tone, super, super important. Yeah, sounds

Ebonie Mukasa: 40:18

like a good what's what excites you about that? You know,

Laurie Graham: 40:22

I love it. Okay, so the lead, well, conference is almost here. Ebony will be speaking at it. I have your topic right in front of me. Do you want to tell them about it? Or do you want me to tell them you okay? So this is what Ebony and I when we were talking. About what she wants to speak on she's speaking in the in the theme of, like, tradition, traditional cultures, like people that are resistant to change, right? And she said, Could I talk about this? It's, it's like in there, but it's not quite the same. She is talking about the people who are like on the outside of church, all the people who are hurt by church, who just are resistant to even come back into the church, basically, and that they're not rebellious. Like, could we reimagine when the old way stops reaching new people? Did I say that clearly enough, Ebony, because I'm so excited about your topic. Like, I'm so excited

Ebonie Mukasa: 41:11

I'm praying and asking Lord, like, Lord, come on, give me something fresh. It's so I'm so passionate about it. Yeah, and it's so many we I think all of us have someone or several in our lives that that can relate to this and what happened to them. How do we read

Laurie Graham: 41:29

it's that phrase when the old way stops reaching new people. I just I can't wait. I can't wait. All right, everybody, here's a reminder. I just want us all to walk away with today. Tradition can be beautiful the way we've always done things can be great, but tradition is not rightness. It's not the only way. It's not the right way, and oftentimes that phrase we've always done it this way, it feels really safe, because it's what we're used to. It's what we know, but it really keeps us stuck. The truth is, is that the church doesn't get healthier by saying staying stuck. Like, I mean, like, that's just true. Like, if doing things the same old way keeps us stuck, that doesn't help the church get healthier. The church gets healthier when we're honest enough to to really name what's broken, when we're curious enough to explore some new ideas, when we're brave enough to try to do something different, and I truly believe God put us on this planet to do it together. It's not a lone ranger, it's not one person's idea. It's getting on the same page. So we could have these conversations and move forward together. We don't need to leave people behind who say we've always done it this way, people who are resist. We don't need to do that. Yes, God is very slow. God is not in it. He's never in a rush. Yes, Jesus never rushed. You know. So again, if you want more conversations like this, don't miss the lead. Well, conference coming up, you can get a free ticket at small church summits.com. And by the way, this is for women, titles or no titles. It's for all women. We are ditching all the walls, all the titles that divide us. Nobody's a volunteer, nobody's just a volunteer. Nobody's coming in as a pastor's wife, a pastor, a ministry leader. We are all just coming in as women who we know God has called us to be an influence, because he put us on this planet. That's it. That's all we need to know. We're created by him. So all women, please welcome and grab your free ticket at small church summits.com. And ebony is going to be there. So we're excited about that, ebony. Thank you for being with us today. I appreciate

Ebonie Mukasa: 43:33

it so much. Thank you for having me. Yeah, and

Laurie Graham: 43:35

everybody out there, thanks for listening and being part of our community that believes in small churches and believes that small churches really matter. So all right, until next week, keep changing the world and be light You.