188: The Small Church Pay Debate: A Question That Drives Me Crazy!

That question — “Would you keep doing your ministry if you weren’t paid?” — drives me nuts. 

Ministry isn’t one-size-fits-all, and neither is pay. Some serve as a career, others as a calling — and both deserve respect. 

This episode isn’t about right or wrong; it’s about honesty, healthy boundaries, and giving yourself permission to choose what works for your life, whether that includes a paycheck or not.

What You’ll Hear:

• How the “Would you work for free?” question misses the messy, real-life truth about small church ministry
• Why budgets don’t always reflect the value churches place on ministry roles
• When unclear expectations can lead to hurt—and why clear boundaries protect everyone

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Transcript

Laurie Graham: 0:01

Hey, welcome to the small church ministry podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host. Laurie Graham, let's dive in. You. Laurie, hey friend, welcome back to another episode of the small church ministry podcast. This is a safe place for real. Talk about ministry without all the hustle, burnout and even fake perfection. I'm Laurie, and today we are diving head first into another question that seriously drives me crazy. If you missed last week, I just started a small little mini series, not even sure how many it will be, but just trying to address some of the questions that make me insane, that are popping up on Facebook, social media, even at churches or at different conferences, ministry spaces, questions that I just think are getting damaging responses, like there's almost a response that I can almost expect people are gonna say around these questions that are causing a lot of damage, in my opinion, in church culture, in modern church culture, and the question we're gonna talk about today is, Would you keep doing ministry if you weren't paid? Okay, now, if you're listening, you're probably in a smaller church, and you might have just rolled your eyes. Well, I don't get paid anyway. But this question, I think, is worth addressing, even in our small church space, because we definitely have smaller churches who do have paid staff, even multiple paid staff, and many of us have been in experiences in larger churches, mid sized church settings, and we wonder like, why does the church not pay for this children's ministry position if it's so vital, or why are we not paying our pastor full time? Would you keep doing ministry if you weren't paid. So let me just kind of go through why I'm talking about this question so and you can take any variation of this question, like, if you're getting paid, what you're worth, if you should be paid, if we should be paying somebody else, maybe you're on a leadership board or something, and the question of pay comes up. So wherever the question of pay comes up. I think what we're going to talk about today is really important. So recently, this question popped up in one of the larger ministry Facebook communities. It pops up quite a lot in this particular community. You may already be nodding like, Yep, I see that all the time, and watching the responses so the question didn't upset me, but the responses got me so riled up, I almost jumped in. Now, I rarely do that, and I stopped myself from doing it, but I was like, Ugh, I do not want to enter this conversation, but I knew I needed to do a podcast episode instead, because here's the thing, the question of if we should get paid for ministry, or if would you keep doing ministry if you weren't paid, was the specific question that was asked. This question completely over simplifies something that is so personal and so nuanced, it's putting something in a box that doesn't belong in a box, and there's no one right answer. People are different. Churches are different stages of life, callings, finances, needs, capacities, budgets, they're all different, but when this question comes up, the answers usually have quite a side of judgment on them with them, like, if you're not paid, maybe you're not serious about ministry, or if you're not paid, this one comes up a lot, you're being taken advantage of. I just want to say these are not true in all circumstances. They could be true in some but I'm going to say not even necessarily, normally or how about if you are paid, if you're taking money for pastoring, for leading a youth group, for even serving in a nursery, then maybe you're less spiritual, because we should serve for nothing. Or maybe, if you are paid, you're more worthy because they see your worth. Okay, so I just want to say, Ugh, nope. Not here. Okay, not here. I'm still going to unpack this question, because I think it is so important to consider ministry in all areas, and also to be able to be the non anxious voice in the room, the non critical responder. Her in a sweet area of possible Ministry of influence. We're all in influence in every conversation. So I want to share a little bit about where I'm at in this journey, what I've learned along the way, what I've heard from many of you, what I have loved about being in ministry, and I've been both volunteer and paid in different stages of my life. So now I know most people listening right now are unpaid volunteers, because that is the majority of people serving in small churches. So why should you care about this, because the debate does pop up, and I see a lot of people in small churches who've never been paid having one of two reactions, either, wait, people get paid for this. Am I being taken advantage of? Or, well, our church would never do that. That's just what big churches do, and that is also not always the case. So I'm just going to pull back the curtain a little bit today on calling compensation boundaries. Yep, we're going there and why the small church isn't a lesser version of ministry. It's not plan B. Small churches are very powerful, holy, relational work, small church ministry. That's what it is, and it deserves way more clarity and way less judgment. Okay, let's just be real about money and small churches, just for a second, budget size does not always match the value that a church places on ministry. Scream it from the rooftops, budget size doesn't always match the value a church places on ministry. This is one of the comments that always gets responded to in this one particular group, that if your church valued children's ministry, their budget would show it. That is not always true, especially in smaller churches, same with worship, just because your church doesn't put money into worship teams doesn't mean that they don't value it. It also doesn't necessarily mean they don't have the funds for it. We're allowed to have different priorities in different seasons, and on the other hand, some people are pursuing like paid ministry roles. Please hear this, because it's their career and their livelihood, and that's okay, too. That can be a good and valid thing when it comes to small churches. I've known small churches, even very small churches, like in their 50s, like with 50 people who've hired part time children's directors, because that's where their passion was, because somebody funded it, because it was there. So we also don't have a one size fits all small church. Some people listening right now. Have 50 members, 20 members, no members, 500 members, right? So we're just talking about money and churches, and that budget size don't always match value, and budget size doesn't always match the people size either. There's some larger churches that have much smaller budgets and some smaller churches. So let's just like, blow that out of the water that there isn't one box. But I do want to keep reiterating over and over and over again that small church ministry, even if they can't afford or don't have a budget to pay for staff, it's not a plan B or a fallback. Small church ministry can be a vibrant, unique place where real relationships happen, where people are known and seen and heard and cared for. And to me, this is Jesus ministry, ministry that focuses on care over programs. And again, programs aren't bad. I'm just talking about the focus and that small church ministry with less programs can be vibrant and beautiful, because it's not just about the numbers. So let's talk about the shame that gets tossed around like a hot potato when it comes to money. Sometimes you hear these things, if you were really called you wouldn't want to be paid, or Jesus wasn't paid, so neither should you be. Other times the flip side pops up. You should never serve for free, because God wouldn't want you to be taken advantage of. That was a quote out of this ministry Facebook group I am in that is a quote that has gotten responded more than once, but I literally pulled this quote from the group. It was a response to that question, you should never serve for free because God wouldn't want you to be taken advantage of. Okay, now here's the truth. Jesus modeled a heart for serving, but he also valued rest and boundaries and emotional health. The Bible doesn't say that ministry means poverty or exploitation. It doesn't define whether everyone should be. Paid for ministry or not. We see Paul as a tent maker. Some people quote that Well, Paul worked so that he a real job, right? A real job so that he could serve in the church for free. But we see many examples of Christ followers everywhere, paid or unpaid. Now, whether you serve paid or unpaid, I just need to also say that your value doesn't come from the paycheck. Your value comes from who you are in Christ, not a paycheck or a lack of one. So let's drop the shame on both sides that everybody should be serving for free or that everybody should be getting paid. This isn't an either or discussion. It's about honoring your calling and your well being, but it's also about honoring the choices of others, the agency, the free will. Let's take the shame out of here, but here's the hard reality, sometimes, especially in small churches, serving unpaid does lead to burnout and can lead to being taken advantage of. Yes, I am calling this out. I'm saying it's not a fact. It's not an always reality. It's not an absolute, but yes, sometimes, especially in small churches, serving unpaid does lead to burnout, and it can lead to being taken advantage of I've seen families uprooted, thrown into ministry roles with no contract, no plan, no clear expectations. Pastors who are relocating, it ends badly. If you're feeling overworked or undervalued or disrespected, that's your gut telling you that something is important here now, it's not always about them. It could be about me. It could be about us, because boundaries aren't a luxury, they are a necessity. We are supposed to take care of ourselves, we're supposed to guard our health. We're supposed to be good stewards of this body that God has given us. How many times do we talk about stewardship in terms of money? In the church, we're supposed to steward our money well, but we're running, burning the candle at both ends, barely sleeping, doing way too much, and it's showing up in our emotions. If you've ever heard me talk about emotions, I believe emotions are invitations. If you're feeling overworked, undervalued, disrespected, those are invitations to some conversations with God. It's saying there is something off here. But ask yourself, what can you realistically do? Where can you say no when it's needed? Are you able to because you need to be able to? Don't tell me. You can't say no. It's not true. That's not biblical. You can say no. Do you have space and rest to care for yourself? Are you taking that space and rest? Are you supported? Are you respected? If the answer is no, it might be time to have some tough conversations, but it also might be time for you, personally to set the boundaries that you need to have. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, do you hear that the nuance here? There's no way I can say that if you don't feel supported and respected, that is your church leadership's issue. They are not respecting you. Like, if you feel something, it could be them, it could be you. It could be both an and this is where we have to have honest conversations. And honestly, if you are feeling burnt out or like you don't have agency, like you can't say no, like you're being taken advantage of. Can I just suggest like, help from professionals who help sort these things out, like certified counselors, we can be Jesus followers and get real wise counsel. You're not on your own to figure this out either. So where does this leave us? Okay, so I'm just going to talk a little bit about finding peace and confidence in your ministry role, whether you're paid or unpaid, whether the person next to you who's serving in the next office or the next church down the street has a total different mindset, different financial situation, different desires, maybe different needs than you are. Where does that leave us? Because whether we're paid or unpaid, our ministry matters. Your ministry matters. Your choice is valid and worthy of respect. And I want to say straight up, it is okay to want to be compensated for your time and your talents. I also want to say it is. Is okay to serve freely, if that fits your current season of life, I would love to remove the shame on every side of this picture. What matters most isn't just that we're confident in our choice or our role or at peace with the decisions that we make. What also matters is that we're at peace with the people around us. God called us to live and be in community, if we could be more honest and more open and less judgmental and less critical about if they're getting paid and if your church has money, or if they don't have money, and if that person wants money, but you've been serving for free forever. Does this not remind you of the parable in the Bible where you agree to work for a certain amount, the other person pops up and you realize they had a shorter day and got paid more. How does that parable resolve? Is there one right way? Is there one right decision? Should every church look alike and their budgets and the people serving? No, it's let's be honest about what we can give, about what we need. Let's be okay with what we've agreed to, with what the with the choices that we've made. Let's learn to set clear and loving boundaries. And I just want to talk about this just briefly. Most of us do not know how to set clear and loving boundaries, which is why I'm saying, let's learn how to do this better. Our modern culture is all about boundaries, of canceling people out, about building walls, about protecting ourselves. That is not the that is not the point of boundaries. It's not about keeping people out. Okay? That's not what it's about. It's about protecting our peace in the middle of community. We've got to learn this. Let's stop buying into shame or comparison or one way or one right answer. When people ask this question online, could we answer it with with other questions, with empathy, empathy with curiosity, instead of with this pat answer of this is the way it's always supposed to be. Can we surround ourselves with people who lift us up and support us? And by the way, the people who lift us up and support us are always for us, there is a large piece of emotional health that surrounds the question of money, of pay, a large piece of it, which is probably why the Bible says the love of money is the root of all evil, right? It's not money itself. And I'm also not going to go down that path that money is bad or evil, because I do good stuff with the money I get. Do you for people who are making good incomes or are able to make incomes in ministry even, are we moving in generosity? Are we moving in integrity? I know people with a lot of money who have a lot of fear of scarcity around money. I also know people with very little money who have fear and scarcity around money. It's not about the money. Ministry is not about the money, but whether somebody chooses to seek out a ministry position for their livelihood because that's where they can meet their family's needs, or for any other reason can we stop shaming everybody and just look at our own ministry story? Because as we look at our own ministry story, we get to own our ministry story. And when I say ministry, I mean influence, I mean service, we're all in ministry. We get to own the story that we live our own way, and other people get to own their way. Can we allow people that? Can we allow our friends in other churches or other spaces or online? Can we allow them to pursue God and grow in the manner where God is calling them and not overlay our story on theirs, our convictions, our personal bents. Okay? Because this question of, should you get paid in ministry, or would you work for free, or if your church cut your salary, would you stay. Way, and a pastor says, I would love to, but I can't, because I've got three kids and a spouse, and this is not feeling right in my soul at this point in time, can we allow that? I really believe that God provides everything we need for whatever he has in mind for us today, in this season, if you don't have money to pay for a staff member, whether it's actually the pastor or a nursery worker or a children's director or a worship leader, what might God be doing? Where is the hope? Because God is at work. What is he doing? What's he doing? And if your church has money to pay, can we allow that to be a blessing? If those are the priorities that you are choosing, this is community. It's messy. There's not one answer, but I truly believe the more that we can remove this judgment, this demand that people think and choose like us, the closer we're going to get to living Jesus centered people first lives. Let's support each other in our choices, in the discussions, in the mental and emotional struggles around ministry, and even in this question, which seems so simple, should we get paid to do ministry? It's not that simple. You know, one thing I love about small churches that I think makes them so amazing is that we are all so unique in our cultures, in our demographics, in the circumstances that surround our smaller spaces, but what we have in common is the ability to create spaces where everyone is seen and known and loved. We have the capacity, because of the smallness, to walk with people through life, not just run programs. We get to be flexible. We get to be real. We get to be authentic with less red tape, I won't say no red tape or bureaucracy, because there's always lines and levels, but less which gives us more flexibility. And this really is ministry that really does reflect the heart of Jesus in so many ways and in ways that is not duplicated in larger settings, because it can't be. We've all got our own uniquenesses, and small churches has some real beautiful things about them. So thanks for sticking with me through this. I don't know if I would say tough, maybe awkward, maybe interesting kind of conversation, but I do think it's important if you are wrestling with or have wrestled with this pay debate, whether it's about your ministry role or a conversation happening in another space. I just always hope we all keep in mind that our ministry is valuable and our boundaries are essential. Again we've got a steward ourselves and our choices deserve grace. Your ministry is valuable. Your boundaries are essential. Your choices deserve grace, and so do theirs. So I would love to hear how you're navigating this. If you have the kind of discussions that pop up for you, you can always connect with us at creative solutions for small churches in our free Facebook community and also on social media. Just find us at small church ministry, our links are in the show notes. So keep loving Well, keep caring deeply. Keep setting those boundaries with grace and love. You are doing important work. So until next week, when I hit one more question that pops up and drives me crazy, until next week, be light. You.