182: We Turned Discipleship into a Lecture: What Happened to Heart & Soul?

In this series, we’ve been naming what’s broken in church culture—and today, we’re talking about what we lost in discipleship.

When did spiritual growth become just facts, checklists, and classroom settings? 

Jesus didn’t disciple minds—He discipled hearts. He invited people into His life. He wept. He asked questions. He modeled emotional depth, not just theological accuracy.

Somewhere along the way, we started ignoring that side of discipleship—and it’s costing us. Real transformation doesn’t happen without real connection.

In this episode hear:

• Why emotions, vulnerability, and connection matter in spiritual growth
• How Psalms and the life of Jesus model emotional intelligence
• What happens when we teach minds but ignore hearts
• Why small churches are uniquely positioned to lead the way in authentic discipleship

Let’s stop numbing out and start showing up—heart, soul, and all.

Join our free Facebook Community: www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry


Rate, Review, & Follow Laurie on Apple Podcasts

"I love Laurie and The Small Church Ministry Podcast!!" << If that's like you, please consider rating and reviewing my show! This helps Small Church Ministry support and reach more people -- just like you -- in small churches! Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then, let us know what you loved most about this episode!

Also, if you haven’t done so already, follow the podcast. This is the best way to stay updated on the new episodes we release weekly. If you’re not following, there’s a good chance you’ll miss out on future episodes. Follow now!

Get the Ministry Bundles here!

Transcript

Laurie Graham: 0:01

Hey, welcome to the small church ministry podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host. Laurie Graham, let's dive in. You. Laurie, hey, hey, welcome back to the small church ministry Podcast. I'm Laurie, and this is the final episode in our five year anniversary series, off script, five years of saying what needs to be said, and today we're talking about discipleship, what we've lost in the modern church, because somewhere along the line, discipleship turned into a lecture, a class, a transfer of information, of biblical facts. And I really, really believe that Jesus would walk into most of our churches today and say, you are missing the points. Discipleship was never meant to be cold and clinical. Jesus didn't hold seminars. He invited people into his life. He wept, he felt he modeled the kind of emotionally grounded, Soul connected way of living that we desperately need more of in our churches today. So today we're asking what happened to heart and soul, and how do we bring it back? And as we walk through this, I want you to think about your own experience. Was there a time when discipleship felt personal and life giving? Was there a time when it felt more like a checklist to complete? Are there things happening in our churches today that might feel like that to people walking in? Has your own discipleship gotten a little bit stuck or stagnant, where we're feeling more pressure to perform and to do and to check the box, but we've lost some of our passion or excitement for the gospel. I think we need to look at this from several sides. One where we are at how we feel connected to Jesus, but we also really got to look at what we are putting out there in our teaching, in our Sunday school, in our language, in the way that we frame things. Because let's be honest, modern discipleship, when people talk about discipling today, they look for resources. They look for that discipleship curriculum, for that book. Oftentimes, there's a list of spiritual habits to master, read this, memorize that show up weekly, do the homework, do the assignments. Know the right answer, study and listen. I love scripture. I get it. I believe in truth, but I think maybe sometimes we confuse knowing about God with actually knowing him and experiencing him, or maybe we've just got him flipped around. Or one is kind of raised up in value than the other. I took a college class. I think this was my freshman year of college that really stuck with me. I've never forgotten this topic. John guy was the professor, and he talked about being devoted or having devotions. The difference between being devoted to Jesus and having devotions, one is connection, the other is a checkbox. It's not that one can't happen without the other, but they don't always happen in conjunction. And that really hit me, because I realized that I definitely had a tendency as a as an achiever, as an overachiever, as a very responsible person, to do what I needed to do, and I had a habit of shoving my emotions away, not trusting them. Sometimes, I had been performing more than I was abiding, and it left me feeling kind of empty. I got to know Jesus. When I was in sixth grade, I was very passionate about KNOWING JESUS. I had found something I'd never found before. I'm 55 now, and I've got to say, the same passion I had at different times in my life wasn't there consistently. But I got to tell you, a lot of times when I was feeling less connected with God, it was because I was relying on the checklist on the intellectual side, and the connection was less somewhere along the way the modern church in general. By and large, started treating emotions like a problem to fix, like emotions weren't spiritual, or they were something that we should hide instead of pay attention to. Or if we changed our thoughts enough, the emotions would come in line, especially in church settings where thinking rightly was a priority. Have you ever heard people say, Don't trust your feelings, like I get the intent behind that. But what if our feelings aren't obstacles? What if our feelings, our emotions, are invitations? Can you make that leap with me today? Think about the book of Psalms. There's nothing neat or controlled in the book of Psalms, or not very much. There's a lot of raw, emotional, full, embodied expressions of pain and joy and even rage and longing and worship and fear and love. And how about Jesus? Jesus did not stuff his emotions. He wept at Lazarus tomb. He didn't say, Oh, it's okay. He's up in glory right now. We don't need to be sad. He wept. He got angry at injustice. He didn't justify it. He showed compassion to the outcasts. Jesus did not disciple with words. He discipled with his presence. Yes, there were words. He discipled with his presence. And now sometimes it feels like we've sanitized discipleship, we've professionalized it, we've added steps to it, and stages. It's almost like we've drained the humanity out of discipleship, and people are walking away from churches because it feels like there's no space for authenticity, for real life, for feelings, for connection. So let me ask you something personal. Was there ever a time that you felt like your emotions were too much for your church? And ask it again. Was there ever a time that you felt like your emotions were too much for your church, like maybe you didn't feel safe asking a hard question or sharing a doubt or admitting that you were struggling, or even just sharing a personal story you were going through or had been through? Janine McConaughey talks about leaving stories at the door in her book trauma in the pews, she talks about how we've created these environments where people leave their stories in the car. They come to church, but but their emotions, their stories, their experience, they leave in the car because those are not welcome in the church. This is very real. There are very few churches who are doing this well, who are making space for life on life discipleship, which is exactly what Jesus modeled. Emotions matter, because discipleship should make room for our whole selves, not just the polished parts that show up looking pretty. Here's the cost of our current discipleship model, the one that is overly weighted on the intellectual information side. Okay? And again, I think there's a both and to be like involved here. I am not saying we don't need truth, we don't need processing, we don't need intellectual, you know, understanding. I'm just saying we've got to quit throwing our emotions out the door the cost of our current discipleship model, which most churches around the world today are heavily invested in, the intellectualizing of our faith. Here's the cost. People are learning theology, but they're not learning how to process pain. People are memorizing scripture, and honestly, as I'm saying this right now, I am thinking of children and teens who are learning to memorize Scripture but not practicing empathy or even understanding or experiencing it in their own lives, people are learning what to say, but they don't know how to grieve. People who really embrace this type of discipleship. They can debate. They can win a debate, but they can't. Truly sit with someone who is suffering and when life gets hard, because it does, people feel like they failed God, not just that God failed them, but so many people who've been discipled in this way, when life gets hard and it's not working. How they thought it would? They feel like they failed God, because what they learned isn't working anymore. And you know what? Maybe it's not them, maybe it's the system. Maybe it's the church system that failed them. Sometimes we're not teaching people how to feel as followers of Christ. We're only teaching them how to think, and that is not discipleship. That is a lecture. And let's be clear, Jesus didn't make disciples by handing out outlines and assigning readings, he made disciples. This was the process of discipleship. Was walking beside people, laughing, crying, confronting, conversing, restoring, listening, asking questions, processing together. It was never about the performance of knowledge, the the transfer of information. It was about the transformation of the whole self. Please hear that it wasn't about transferring information. It was about transformation of our whole selves. I had a friend once tell me I know all the right answers, but I still feel so far from God. Do you know how many Christians feel like this at some point in their lives, Jesus followers who love him, who've studied scripture, I know all the right answers, but I don't feel connected with God anymore. This is what's happening to a lot of people these days who are deconstructing their faith. They were taught the right answers. They had them all, but they still felt so far from God. And by the way, that is not always a bad thing. That can be a really great invitation to press into God more deeply, but when we think it's about the intellectual answers, there's nowhere to go with that. If we've already got all the information, how could that be an invitation? This is how, because it's not just about the invitation, it's not just about the information head knowledge does not heal a broken heart. Presence, does? Love, does empathy, does? Jesus does, but not head knowledge. It's not that it's bad to know. It's just that it's a both and an and, and we have forgotten the both and the and let's look at what Jesus actually did, because if we claim to follow Him, we probably should disciple like he did. Jesus ate with people and hung out with people who were not ready yet, who weren't ready to follow Him. Jesus had long conversations instead of giving one size fits, all sermons with three points are all the answers really boiled into three points. Jesus let people ask very difficult questions. Jesus invited doubt. Jesus modeled honesty. He also modeled vulnerability. He didn't shame people into spiritual growth. Please hear that he didn't shame people into spiritual growth. He loved them into it, not beautiful, because that's what Jesus did. He discipled people relationally, emotionally and honestly, not with a checklist, but with connection. And here's what's amazing, he didn't need a fancy platform, a perfect setting, live streaming. Oops, did I just step on people's toes there? He didn't need a nursery. He didn't need a program for the year. He used whatever was in front of them, a dinner table, a boat, a walk. That's what the church is missing right now, and the good news is small churches are uniquely positioned to bring this back, because we are small. We're already relational. We're we already know each other, we already have everything we. Need to do this work. We don't need a mega church stage, we don't need lights, we don't need a bigger budget. We just need intention. So what if we decided to be more present than we try to be polished? Could we be present more than we're polished? Why not? Here's what this could look like. Prioritize story and testimony, not just sermons. Please hear that. I didn't say not sermons. I said, not just sermons. So add it both an and prioritize story and testimony, not just sermons. Another thing, create space in discipleship, for questions, for emotion, for grief, one of my favorite points, ideas, thoughts, how about this? Let's stop treating people like spiritual projects and start walking with them like spiritual family. Another idea is to model vulnerability as leaders, as Sunday school teachers, as church members. If you cry, cry, if you struggle, say so. This is choosing presence over polish, showing up, being vulnerable, sharing stories and accepting the stories of other people, there is a time and place for curriculum. I love a good curriculum, but you do not need a curriculum to disciple someone. Do you know what you do need proximity, presence, being there. Emotional connection. That's where relationships like bond. Relationships don't bond over information. They bond over people being seen, cared for, a mutuality of respect. And how about this? A willingness to show up in the mess of life. You don't have to be a therapist. You don't have to be a Bible scholar. Every single one of us, you and me, can love like Jesus did, fully, authentically with our whole selves. I want to challenge you to something. What would happen if you traded perfection for presents this week, if we gave up on Polish and just decided to be with someone at church on Sunday when we go to the grocery store, at home with family members, with friends, could we just be present and consider that a part of discipleship, a valid part, an important part, a crucial part being with people who is somebody you could sit with this week without an agenda, who is Somebody you could be with, who is someone you could listen to, even if you don't have the answers, just being with somebody. As we get ready to close off this episode, couple things to think about, has your church turned discipleship into a lecture, or leaning toward it? Now, I don't mean that as a shame based question, as a judgment, but just as a thoughtful exploration, maybe the better question is, is, where have we turned discipleship into a lecture? How have we done that? How about this? What would it look like to bring back some more heart and soul, more stories, more connection? What could it look like? Could we start by asking somebody how they're doing? Could we make some space where it's okay to cry, maybe sometimes, where we model it ourselves, because we're human. God gave us our emotions. Our emotions are so good for us physiologically, even look up how good it is to cry and then stop trying to stuff it down. Could we lead not just with truth, not just with truth, but with presence? Please notice the both in the and discipleship. Really should. Feel human, because Jesus was fully human, and he didn't hide it. And I want to say this, especially if, if you're, if you're someone who's ever felt like too emotional for church spaces, you are not too much, and you are not broken. Maybe you're just the reminder your church needs that we were all meant to live and love and grow as whole people. Let's bring that back. I want to thank you so much for spending time with me today. There are other places you could have spent your time, other things you could have been doing. I know your life is very full throughout this five year anniversary series, the last four podcasts. If this episode hit you deeply or a different episode, did, would you please share it with somebody else in ministry. And when I say in ministry, if you are new to this podcast, to me by in ministry, I mean all of us. I mean if you're listening to this podcast, even without a position in your church, where you feel like you're just showing up, but you're not sure where you fit, or maybe you're in a time where you've pulled back because your capacity is limited. You are still in ministry. We all are that's just being a follower of Jesus. It's walking in a room and affecting those around us. It's going to the grocery store, it's walking down the street. Everywhere we go, we affect people. That is influence, that is leadership, that is ministry. We need more authentic emotional connection in our churches. And it starts with us. Starts with you. It starts with me. As I've said, I think at the close of most of the anniversary episodes, maybe all of them. It doesn't start with us, pointing out where that church leader isn't doing what they're supposed to, or that pastor or that Sunday School teacher or other people, or the people in our Bible studies, or the people that we're serving or the volunteers on our team. It starts with us. It starts with you and me. Let's model it. Let's live like Jesus. Let's connect. Let's disciple with presence. It is what Jesus did. So don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Leave a review. Come hang out with us on social media. All our links are below in the notes, in the show notes, I'm Laurie, and this is the small church ministry podcast. So fabulous to be with you this week. We'll talk to you next week, and until then, be a light you