176: Getting on the Same Page: Trust & Understanding Between Pastor & Volunteers | with Doug Beutler

In this insightful episode of the Small Church Ministry Podcast, host Laurie Graham sits down with Pastor Doug Butler to explore the often-challenging dynamics between pastors and church volunteers. 

They dive deep into building trust, understanding, and unity in small church settings, discussing how to:

• Overcome communication barriers
• Embrace diverse personalities
• Create a supportive church community

Doug shares practical wisdom from 27 years of pastoral experience, offering valuable insights for both church leaders and volunteers on how to work together effectively, validate each other's ministries, and focus on discipleship. 

Whether you're a pastor, volunteer, or church member, this episode provides encouragement and strategies for creating a more connected and impactful church family.

Connect with Doug Beutler:
www.lifewatercc.org/seeds-of-change

Join our free Facebook Community: www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry


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Transcript

Laurie Graham: 0:01

Hey, welcome to the small church ministry podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host. Laurie Graham, let's dive in. You. Hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of the small church ministry podcast today. We are talking to a pastor. Now, it's always funny on the podcast when people either suggest topics or want to be on the podcast, because I have to tell everyone that our audience is mostly volunteers. We talk to laiety, we talk to volunteers, we talk to ministry leaders. Our main audience, although it's not pastors as our main audience, we have a lot of following of pastors. So I always think it's quite a privilege to have a pastor on the podcast. And today we're talking about a pretty cool topic, of sometimes there's like a break between pastors and volunteers or ministry leaders, or we've got this edge between professional ministry and people who are just serving right, serving from the pews, serving from where they're at. And so we have a just a really great conversation today to look forward to, and hopefully by the end of the podcast, you will have some ideas and thoughts that will apply to whatever situation you're in, whether you're in a situation where you are loving your pastor and trying to, you know, develop new ministries, or whether you're in a situation where you are the pastor and you're trying to understand the people in your church more, wherever you're coming from, on whatever end, In whatever, honestly, even stage of Church Health or stage of church development, Pastor Doug Butler and I are gonna try to tackle some common things that we've seen and enjoy the conversation together. So Doug, do you wanna introduce yourself real quick, let people know where you're from, what experiences you've had in smaller churches, and some of the cool things you're even doing now? Sure

Doug Beutler: 2:00

love to first of all, I want to thank you, Laurie, for having me on the podcast. I really appreciate that. I am a pastor at life water Community Church, which is in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and we actually, my wife and I started this church 20 years ago, and we started in our living room, and it's just been a joyous journey as we've traveled the last 20 years, and specifically the last 10 years has been very interesting, because we have rolling through COVID. We have really generated some momentum of a disciple making movement in our little church. We're under 100 and we've always been under 100 I've been a pastor of a church for 27 years, and they all have been under 100 people. And so when you have that small of a church in that kind of context, you have to have volunteers, and you need people to work with you and to work together to accomplish the vision of what God has called a particular church to do. And so this topic, I'm really looking forward to it. I do want to update you. A year ago, my wife and I were at a conference, and we were sort of praying about what our, sort of our next step would be. And this idea of helping churches under 100 grow disciple making movements within their churches. We both came up with the idea at the same time. I had written some things down on my phone, and my wife comes to me, and she goes, Hey, have you ever thought about this? And what she described was exactly what was on my phone. And so we started that back in April of 2024 and it's just exploded, and it's helping pastors. I work primarily with pastors, helping them to create disciple making movements within their churches. And pastors really need to understand that it's it's not their job to grow the church or make disciples by themselves. They need to be a model for it. They need to be a leader for it. But they need to be training and equipping their their people within their churches to do the ministry. And when people catch up, catch that. It's it's just extremely exciting to see.

Laurie Graham: 4:20

Yeah, you know one thing you said is you said, when you know a church that small, you have to have volunteers, and when you said that, I immediately triggered back to my experience in large churches, because although larger churches definitely utilize volunteers, they hire a lot of experts, they hire a lot of people, and their reliance on volunteers. Although they need volunteers, it's just it really is a little different. And when you said, when you're in a church is small, you have to have volunteers. Like, to me, that is the beauty of of church ministry. Like, I think that's what church community is supposed to be like at its core, a lot of people even push back at the word volunteer. Because they're like, We shouldn't be volunteers. This just should be part of what we do as disciples. But the word volunteer is, you know, just broadly, generally recognized as somebody who works and doesn't get paid, right? And so we continue to use that word. But like, to me, that's the beauty of the small church. Like, it's what we're supposed it's like, the ideal, to me, is when we're all sharing the load. Where is your love for small churches? Come in, because you just said that you not only have been a pastor of a small church for 27 years, but you are now moving in helping smaller churches, you know, helping pastors in small churches create these disciple making movements, which I just love. But tell us a little bit about your philosophy of small churches, because so many people out there think small churches just haven't grown yet. And I don't think you think that.

Doug Beutler: 5:48

I hate the word revitalization, because it's usually just trying to get smaller churches to look like bigger churches, and that doesn't work. I think smaller church is you know, my bias opinion. I think it's one of the greatest institutions in America today. In fact, I think that there is a revival that is beginning in small town America, in in the smaller churches, and one of the reasons is because they already have a pastor there that feels called and the you have people that love their church and they love their community, and when you have that combination, some amazing things can happen in communities. And so it's a lot easier for a small church to change a direction. They don't have to worry about all the programs. Because really, I? In fact, I was in a workshop this morning, and I was talking to them about this, if you want to create a disciple making movement in your church, it's not a Church Growth Movement. So in our church, we are been doing this for 10 years now, and we are still exactly the same size that we are. We're still running about 70 and but in that last 10 years, we've planted two churches. We've started a satellite service in a nursing home, and we're working on a micro church right now. And so, you know, it's what happens is, and this is very unique. What happens in that we've noticed is that people will come into our church, and they'll be there between one to three years, and they'll make a decision, because they'll realize real quickly that in order for them to stay there, they need to engage. And so the ones who don't want to engage, the ones who want to just be a spectator, we have some beautiful, large churches around us that they go to, and I encourage them to do that. You know, if you don't want to participate, if you don't want to be involved in the disciple making movement that's happening here, there's there's churches around us that are way better than we are and do it way better than we do it, and and, and then the other side of it is, then we also have people who say, Hey, I get this, I love this, send me out. And so disciple making movement is not a Church Growth Movement, and I think that's something that is really, really important, because churches, disciple making is not something that a church does. It's who a church is. And so it's not just something they do on the side. Is actually everything that they're about. Yeah,

Laurie Graham: 8:27

yeah. Well, and I think when you talk disciple making, also, I think of that as the individuals in the church are involved in making disciples. Yes, you know, where we have a couple people, where each discipling, instead of the church is discipling, you know, just bunches of people as an institution. So I just think that's really beautiful in a lot of different ways. And so, so let's talk about our topic for today, which is, you know, we talked a little bit before we hit record, and it's a little touchy at times, or it can be, but I know you've seen this, and I've definitely seen this as I've been talking to small churches, just, you know, worldwide, really, sometimes in smaller churches, there seems to be a disconnect between the pastor and the people, like, let's just say the people, we won't even say the volunteers. There's a disconnect. It's almost like a different level, or that's the professional, and it can happen in a lot of ways, right, where the people feel like the pastor should be doing more, more than he or she is already doing, and that they it's their job to hold the pastor accountable to his calling. Like we've seen that, right? We've also seen where the people are super excited about certain things, and they feel like the pastor isn't supportive of their mission and calling. Like we can see this in a lot of different ways. We can see it in conflict, where there's a lot of things that are unspoken or hurt feelings. But what have you seen when there's a disconnect between the pastor and the people? Like, what are we seeing and what can the solutions be? And to me, I put it in the title of the podcast. Us. You know, it's about trust and understanding, like building that commonality, but talk about what you've seen and maybe what some of the solutions might be.

Doug Beutler: 10:08

Well, I think that the number one issue is trust. We live in a culture today that's not very trusting, and in fact, we're in a truth crisis, because you know what's true, and so when we're when we're interacting with us between a pastor and the laity, I hate that term, but so you get sort of the Jive of what I'm talking about. So there really has to be a trust between the two people. And it starts primarily, I believe, with the pastor loving his people. That's where it starts and and the pastor needs to be willing to build relationships and and to go deeper with his people and to help to understand where his his people are. And

Laurie Graham: 10:53

so what happens when the pastor is not naturally relational? Because we see this too, like you're dying about the pastor you know, should be loving their people, going deeper, relationally with their people. Every pastor is not skilled in the same way. Some pastors are great preachers. Some are great administrators. Some are great relationally. So what happens when they're not really relationally bent? Does that make

Doug Beutler: 11:16

sense? Yeah, it does. I think one of the best there's an example I'm thinking of too, of a pastor friend of mine that's like that. And he asked me the same question, and I told him, I said, I think the best thing to do is build people that are around you, that are relational, so that they because a pastor can't do everything, and they can't be everything. And so chances are, if they're a really good preacher and really a good teacher. They may not be very well relationally, because sometimes that's the way the gift mix and the spiritual personality, you know, go together. And so so that person that's not good relationally needs to build a team around them that are good relationally, that can say things like this, because sometimes my wife plays this role, she'll go, Hey, you may want to talk to this person, or you may want to text this person, or this person I think is hurting, you may want to just reach out to them. And that's invaluable for any pastor, but especially a pastor that maybe is not skilled in relationship building

Laurie Graham: 12:20

well. And if we think about pastors who are super relational, because I've known some of them, they're not very many of them. Don't want to totally generalize, but many of the pastors who are super relational aren't always great at administration, and then they get hounded by the council, or whatever the board is, you know, at B, that's, you know, into the stewardship and the finances and the building and that kind of thing. And so I think one of the things that we're talking about, we're not even hedging, we're just going straight into it, is we've got to understand that everybody isn't good at everything, and that also goes for the people, right? And you said the term laity. Can we talk about the term laity before? Because when I was in non denominational churches, we've never heard that word. I'd never used that word right before. I was in a little more of a liturgical setting, so let's kind of define that a little bit like when you said laity. What does that mean

Doug Beutler: 13:12

to me? My My definition would be anybody that's not paid by the church to do ministry. That would be my definition.

Laurie Graham: 13:22

Yeah. So have you ever had to grow like your appreciation of laity, of people in your church, where maybe you had some expectations, and you had to kind of back off and understand that maybe they're super excited about this, but maybe they don't have the administration behind it. And have you ever helped people kind of balance that out, or even grown your own heart for

Doug Beutler: 13:40

that? Well, I what you described as the person who's relational that doesn't have any administration. You've just described me. Were you in My Church yet last week? I was not. That is me. And so a lot of times, and I think this is important, just in general, whether it's a volunteer or whether it's a pastor, you have to understand that you don't have everything. You don't have all the gifts or all the abilities. So sort of the joke around our church is okay, Doug tries, but he needs help. And so I have a team around me of people that are skilled, either in the gift of administration or they're a detailed personality, and so they do the administration for that for me, so I already have a natural example. So, you know, I think for pastors, understanding that you don't have everything, and you, you know, you have weaknesses, that you need to build a team to help you with those. And then also for the people that's that are volunteers, that your pastor isn't perfect, and so sometimes we have this expectation that isn't realistic of our pastors, because they do have weaknesses. They do have things they struggle with.

Laurie Graham: 14:54

And I think that's the beauty of surrounding ourselves with people too, and the strongest teams, the strongest churches. I've seen, and the strongest teams, even in business, that I've seen, are more diverse. We tend to want to hang around people who are like us, but then it limits what we do, because we've all got the same vision or the same skills. Or have you seen some pretty Do you have any examples of some teams or things that you've done in your church that has some diversity in the leadership, like, you know, so and so is so different than so and so, and this is why they work well with what they're doing. Do you have any examples of that in your own

Doug Beutler: 15:30

one of the things that I think is important for us to understand is, okay, so I like the DISC profile. That's a personality profile. And so understanding the disc is this, if you get a bunch of high i which are, these? Are people oriented, creative people, if you get a bunch of high eyes on your team, you're going to have a lot of fun, but you're not going to get anything done. So you need some D's. Which are, you know, they're the typical class, you know, the Type A personality. Who's asking, Okay, what's the next step? You need some of that. You need the high C, which is the critical, critical thinker who's saying, okay, so how you know, what are the steps to get to where we want to go? And then you need the high s, which is the person that makes sure everybody's feeling good, all right, because they're the ones that making sure that there's peace there. But the thing is, when you get all those four personalities together in a room, you're going to have conflict, because they view things differently. So I think it's really important to help what people understand their personalities and what they bring to the table, and how you can work together, and that there is a benefit of having all the personalities in a room together, and you're going to get the right answer, not not necessarily the answer that everybody agrees with, you're going to get the right answer.

Laurie Graham: 16:51

Okay, I love that. You just said, when you have all the right people in the room, there will be conflict, because I think we should normalize conflict, but I also think we need to do a heck of a lot better of resolving it and not ignoring it, right? But I think we should normalize it like conflict is. Is not a bad thing in and of itself. It's what we do with it. And I think sometimes, in order to preserve the peace or try to maintain relationships, we think the best thing is to avoid it or not talk about it, or not resolve it, or quit the team, or not be part of that. You know that that committee, or whatever, because of that of the conflict or the disagreements, you know, different viewpoints, what have you done to preserve, and I'm not going to say peace, because I don't mean to preserving the peace, you know, at the extent of but preserving the unity and the relationships of people as you've been in ministry for 27 years. Yeah,

Doug Beutler: 17:46

unity is very, very important. And I, over the last five or 10 years, have really learned a new appreciation for unity. Unity doesn't mean, though, that you all agree or think the same way unity is, is that you're moving the same direction and you have the same goals. And so love that. Say

Laurie Graham: 18:06

that, say that. Again, I want you to define that. Again. Can't remember not what, and unity is what.

Doug Beutler: 18:10

Unity is not that we all agree with everything. Unity is that you moving in the same direction, you have the same goals. Okay, good. And, and the thing is, is that when you understand that, then you realize that the arguments that you have, or the disagreements that you have, when you allow for people to have a say and have disagreements, then you realize something very valuable. When you get to the end of the disagreement, you realize, I've learned something about that person, and your relationship deepens. And that's the goal. I tell married couples all the time. I tell them in counseling, I say, hey, you know what? If you have an argument in your marriage, that's not a bad thing, because if you're arguing and you're listening the way you should be, and you're arguing the way you should be. You're learning something about your spouse, you're learning the needs that they have. You're learning about where they're coming from, maybe some of the past background or baggage that they might have, and for both of you. And so argument can be really a good thing. And I think the same thing applies to teams or to church situations, because it we don't want our arguments in a win lose situation. We want our arguments in a win win situation. And the goal is, is for us to accomplish what God's called us to do in the church, but also to walk together.

Laurie Graham: 20:10

Yeah, yeah. I love what you just said, because this is like, can you imagine if we actually, when there was a disagreement, we were like, oh, it's an opportunity to go deeper. Oh, we're gonna build a better relationship now. Like, oh my gosh, this is so good, because you felt safe enough to say that, and I'm on the opposite side of what you're saying, and we have an opportunity. Community to have a better, deeper relationship. Can you imagine, like, thinking that instead of, oh no, I gotta leave this committee, like, I don't want to be here right now, like, you know, because usually those shut us down. And I think this is so core in what we're talking about, you know, building trust and understanding between pastor and the people, or pastor and the lady and pastor and the volunteers. Because so often it does feel like in us, them, even with, like, let's say a lay leader, you know, a leader of women's ministry and the team, or the people who aren't on the core team there, often feels like an us, them, like, how do we get rid of that? Doug, how do we get rid of that? Validate

Doug Beutler: 21:09

what they do. You need to validate their ministry. And so because most of the time, people feel that, you know, where they feel like that, or where there's conflict, a lot of times it's because they don't feel validated. And and change is a scary thing. That's a scary word, but the thing is, is that if you don't change, you're going to die. So, you know, churches have to be on, you know, moving and moving forward. And so one of the biggest core struggles that people have with change is they they're worried about what they're going to lose. And so you have to, you have to validate what their ministry is and what they're doing. And if there is, if there is going to need to be some transition or changes help them understand how that's going to benefit their ministry, along with the churches, because you're all working together for the same thing.

Laurie Graham: 22:00

I think people don't always think that. I think we don't always understand that we're working toward the same thing, and sometimes we really might not be working toward the same thing, but that's

Doug Beutler: 22:09

the you. That's the pastor's job, though, to make sure that people understand that that's part of vision casting, where they you know, they need to be honest, and they need to help their people to see that that that what they're doing is valid. So for example, we have this little lady that does our our our our coffee and and I went up to her one day before the service, and I said, I want you to know that your role in this church is so very, very important, because when visitors walk through the door, the first thing they're looking for is something safe. And believe it or not, drinking coffee is safe, and so your ministry is super important, and they just lit up. I mean, they could see how their ministry connected to the vision of the church. And I think that's the job of the pastor. The pastor needs to be able to do that.

Laurie Graham: 23:05

Okay? So you're talking to a lot of non pastors right now, and some of them say, but my pastor doesn't do that,

Doug Beutler: 23:11

right? So I would say two things. One, pray for them. That's the most important thing. Pray for them. And then the second thing is ask them, How does my ministry help what you're trying to do? Because when you ask it in that way, that's going to open up the pastor, and that opens up dialog,

Laurie Graham: 23:37

yeah, and let me throw this out. And this could be the pastor, the ministry leader, the lay person, the volunteer, the new person off the street. A lot of times I feel like when we have these disconnects, right? Like when something feels disconnected, or we don't feel like we're on the same page. Oftentimes, there is a lot of self imposed stress, condemnation. I feel like I'm failing. There's too much pressure on me, whether it's the pastor, the ministry leader, the volunteer, the lady, whoever like I think we have a lot of this internal stuff that, you know, we're almost saying, oh my gosh, they don't like me when really, they're really stressed out. Or, you know, we almost misinterpret, not almost. We often misinterpret signals, statements, a look, you know, a non verbal, or really just a verbal, and we don't even always understand ourselves, right, like what's happening right now. Why is there a disconnect? I think sometimes we we miss the bigger pictures of of what's happening in ourselves, even, like, you know, when you talked about the D, i, s, c, you know, the disc test, the the, you know, type A, the people person, the sensitive person, the the person who's conscientious and looking at all the details I'm not I'm not supposed to be all those things. Like, I think sometimes pastors say I'm supposed to be all these things to all these people and as well as core volunteers who really do hold up small churches like, I think we need to release ourselves from that. Like, I can't be all those things

Doug Beutler: 25:11

I would tell you this. So this has happened to me many times over my ministry career, and that is a person will approach me or just look at me and I am caught up in something else, or I'm thinking about what I have to do tonight, or I have to think, you know, I'm thinking. About the details of the of the service, and they interpret that, that I'm mad at them. I've had people, and I would encourage this. If you think your pastor's mad at you, go up and ask him, because I had this one person in my church who went six months thinking that I was mad at them and I was not mad at them at all. I mean, I wasn't even, you know, I was not in any way angry. I was just every time she looked at me, I was doing something else or I was distracted. And I would say, one other tip for for people who are volunteers, never approach your pastor to talk to them about anything before the service, because he's focused on one thing, and that is the service and his sermon and the details. And, you know, the you know, for me, you know, my mind's going okay. So is this going to work, right? You know, and people are trying to have in depth conversations. And so early on, especially at life water, where I am now. Early on, I just told everybody, and everybody knows this, don't talk to the pastor about anything meaningful before the service.

Laurie Graham: 26:39

Yeah, you know, as we're talking, we're talking about some pretty highly topics that could be highly charged, right conflict, not knowing if somebody's upset, disagreements, different personalities, and I think timing, like you said, is so important, but so is safety. Like we've all been in situations where it's possible the ministry leader is not a safe person for you, or you don't feel safe, you know, like you said, go ask the pastor if they're mad at you. Most people, I could do that. I've got a couple people in my life that I really would not ask because I think they could pretty much go off at me, you know. And I don't want to put myself in that situation. Give us your best tips on that like but I do think we avoid the conversation more than we should have it. But I also think we're pretty responsible to keep ourselves in a safe place, too.

Doug Beutler: 27:29

If you are not in a safe place, you need to leave if if you don't trust your pastor, or you feel like, if you approach him and he's going to, you know, drill you, or throw you under the bus or whatever, then you should that's a good reason to go to a different church, because you're not going to, and I don't, let me tell you, I don't promote people to go into different churches, but that's one of the reasons, because if you don't trust your pastor, and you've had experience with him, not with other pastors in the past, but with him, and you, you don't feel like it's safe, you need to leave

Laurie Graham: 28:07

as you're saying that I'm like reacting inside, going, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that that's not coming from a small church ministry, because, like you, I'm very hesitant, you know, to to give a blanket statement, like, you know that it's ever time to leave a church, because it's such a personal decision, right? Like, it's such a personal decision, but I do think there definitely is a caution there, and that's interesting, hearing that coming from a pastor as well. Yeah, you know that that there is a I do believe we are called to create safe environments. And sometimes our churches aren't very safe, and it does need to be addressed. And if it can't be, if it can't be safe, then we are in a place where we need to keep ourselves safe, of course, you know, like, I think that's just a responsibility. So okay, just for fun, let's lighten this up a little bit, Doug, before we leave. So we have, again, tons of churches, denominations, situations, small church, small town, you know, all over the place. Everybody's listening in right now. What would you say is the most beautiful? Like, like, let's look at the ideal a small church. What does that feel like when we have an idea, when we have a thought, when we want to celebrate people, when we want to create change. Give us that ideal of what you believe, like God said of the church, to be like, what should it feel like

Doug Beutler: 29:25

family? I think it should feel like family and where people come in and they love each other and they care about each other, because the world during the week beats us up. And so we should be able to come into a place that's safe, that's loving, that's caring and is supportive and is ready for ministry. I mean, what I what I love about it is, is that a lot of times we miss this because we go out and we get in this mindset of just survival. I'm just going to try to survive this week and and sometimes in that mindset, we stay away from church because maybe we didn't have a good week, or we struggled, or there was some difficulties. But I really want to encourage people if, if you feel that way, it's there's even a more need to be at church, because that's where the environment should be, that you can come in and say, Hey, I'm just being real. I'm doing terrible, and you have. Group of people that surround you and hug you and say, hey, that's okay. Let's sit down. Let's talk about it, because we love you.

Laurie Graham: 30:39

Yeah, and don't say, suck it up. You're supposed to be in the nursey, right?

Doug Beutler: 30:43

Exactly, exactly.

Laurie Graham: 30:45

And so I, I love that you say, this is what it should feel like. It should feel like family, it should feel supportive, it should feel encouraging. And for those of you listening right now, Pastor Doug and I, we know it's not always like that. We've all been in situations where church doesn't feel like that. But one of the reasons I love this podcast, I love what we're doing. I love what you're doing in supporting small churches. I love being involved in what I'm doing is because we believe it's possible. We believe it is possible to create our small churches, to move toward this in unity, not conformity, right? We don't all have to be the same, but we're moving in the same direction. And part of creating safe, beautiful, small churches that feel like family, part of creating this is getting on the same page. It's being honest enough. It's understanding yourself enough understanding others, enough, giving grace in so many ways. And we know it can happen because we see it like Doug, not just your church, but other churches you've seen this, right?

Doug Beutler: 31:42

Yep, oh, yeah, and it's a movement. I really think it's a movement, and it's exciting to watch.

Laurie Graham: 31:49

Yeah. So we want it. This is our message today is possible, and sometimes it's work. It's often work, right, to create unity, but it's totally possible. So Doug, give us another, another piece of wisdom before we end today. What is there that we haven't talked about yet that you're like, Oh, we really should mention that.

Doug Beutler: 32:08

Go make disciples. That is a theme I have to come back to over and over again, because it's so easy to get distracted. And I it's interesting. We're going back to something you said earlier. I've gone to many, many workshops that talk about, how do you make disciples? And the people who are leading these workshops, I used to ask this question over and over again, so who's doing the disciple making? And they'd always say, well, the paid staff are doing it. And I was at, well, what about the rest of the church? And they couldn't give me an answer. And what I want to say is that anybody, any follower of Christ, can make a disciple, because you can always bring people to the point where you are. So every single person that's a follower of Christ is a very, very important piece in the whole big C church.

Laurie Graham: 33:01

Yeah, I love it. And I just feel the need to say disciple making is not just biblical knowledge and study, right? It's walking out what we're talking about here, right? Like when you're making disciples, it's about living this life of unity, of of being together in community, of, yes, you know, bringing people to Jesus, but it's also this connection with each other. Because I think sometimes disciple making becomes a program where we're just teaching concepts and truths and Bible and disciple making is different. Yeah,

Doug Beutler: 33:36

it's walking together.

Laurie Graham: 33:39

Yeah, yeah, I love it. Doug, if people want to hear more about what you're doing to help other small churches, or if there's pastors around that want to get connected with you, what is the best way for them to connect with you? They

Doug Beutler: 33:50

can connect and come to our website at lifewater, cc.org, you can contact me. There's email information on that website.

Laurie Graham: 34:00

Awesome. We'll be sure to put that in the show notes too. So Doug, thank you so much for being with us. Great conversation. Looking forward to knowing you more and connecting with you more in the future. Thank

Doug Beutler: 34:11

you so much for having me. All

Laurie Graham: 34:13

right, see you later. To everybody listening till next week, be like bye.