172: Beyond Inclusion: Helping Every Child Find Their Place in Church | with Kim Botto

In this powerful episode of the Small Church Ministry Podcast, host Laurie Graham sits down with Kim Botto to explore how small churches can create a welcoming environment for every child, especially those with neurodivergent needs or trauma backgrounds.

Listen in to:

• Discover why 1 in 3 families with children with disabilities have left a church
• Learn practical strategies for inclusion that don't require big budgets
• Understand the difference between simply including children and helping them truly belong
• Get actionable tips for supporting children with sensory needs and behavioral differences
• Hear inspiring stories of churches making meaningful changes

Kim shares practical strategies for inclusion, debunks common myths, and offers hope for churches wanting to ensure every child feels they truly belong. 

Learn how simple tools like fidget resources and compassionate relationships can transform children's church experiences. 

Perfect for ministry leaders, volunteers, and parents seeking to make church a safe, loving space for all children.

Connect with Kim Botto:
www.kimbotto.com
www.instagram.com/kimbotto
Every Child Belongs Podcast: www.podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/every-child-belongs/id1788322535

Get your free ticket to the Small Church KidMin + Youth Ministry Conference:
www.smallchurchsummits.com

Join our free Facebook Community: www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry


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Transcript

Laurie Graham: 0:01

Hey, welcome to the small church ministry podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host. Laurie Graham, let's dive in. You. Hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of the small church ministry podcast, where we do everything small churches, from big people to little people. And today we are talking about kids and youth and teens, but we'll see if we even vary off of that. So I have a special guest with us. We're just going to jump right in, because Kim and I have a lot to talk about, quite honestly, and I think it's a topic that needs more air time than it gets. And so I want to introduce you all to Kim bottle, who is joining us today from Cincinnati, Ohio. So fun. I know a lot of our listeners are out in the Midwest and honestly, all over the place, but so happy to have you here. If you have not met Kim or read her book or seen her at other conferences, she is a friend of a friend of a friend, and I, we have kind of shared different spaces, little bits here and there, but this is our first time actually meeting, and so I'm really glad to finally get to have a conversation with Kim. She has spoken at other conferences for kids that I have seen and watched and kind of been part of at different levels. But Kim, do you want to just give a little bit of just an overview of what we're talking about today and why you are passionate about it?

Kim Botto: 1:36

Yeah, I have led in kids and student ministry for decades. I before I even like, like in high school, I was always most interested in the kid that was sitting outside the circle, the kid at church that had tons of energy, that sometimes didn't know what to do with their hands or their voice. And so that has followed me throughout my career, that that is what I've been passionate about. And then my husband and I adopted our two youngest one at the age of 10 and one at the age of 15, and I really started to learn how a kid's past experiences affect their behavior in the moment. Just because they're safe now doesn't mean they feel safe. And that bled into, oh, kids who are neuro divergent, whose brains are wired differently, they experience the same thing. They're misunderstood because their behavior sometimes will say they can't come to church, which breaks my heart. So that's really how I fell into that. I mean, it's a calling, it's, it's, it's, it's, God's call on my life for these kids, and I think as a church, we often make it too complicated, you we we don't need fancy training. Training is always great, but we don't need a super cool special needs room, which some people call it. Actually, I am opposed to that. What we need is we need kind, compassionate people who want to be Jesus to kids, no matter their behavior, background or unique needs, so that we can create a place in our churches for them to hear about the hope of Jesus that they're not going to hear a lot of other places. So that's kind of who I am and what I pitch about. I have five kids, one husband, and as of two weeks ago, 11 grandkids. Wow.

Laurie Graham: 3:29

Congrats on that. You know, I love the part of the title for this podcast says helping every child find their place in church that has a lot of words in it that I think are really important between find their place in church, every child helping every child. In other words, we can help every child find their place in church. I love it when you talked about the child you were always kind of watching for was the one outside the circle. So what are we doing that they're not automatically finding their place because they're not.

Kim Botto: 4:06

They're not. Yeah, research shows that families that have a kid with disabilities, one out of three so 33% have left at least one church because they were either asked to leave because the church said we can't handle your kid, or their kid did not feel welcome there. And that's not that's not good, that's not right, that's not the way Jesus intended,

Laurie Graham: 4:34

for sure. And you're saying one out of three. I actually thought it would be higher. Darin 33% is really, really high. But of families I talk to, it feels like it's a lot more than that.

Kim Botto: 4:44

It does feel higher. And there are other statistics, some say like 60, 70% I use. Eric Carter has done tons of research in this area, and that's the stat he uses. Some other stats that I hear that are higher. I can't find. Find a good source for that, yeah,

Laurie Graham: 5:01

yeah, yeah, but the reality is, it's way too many. I definitely know families. I've talked to parents. I've talked to families who they would never go into a church because of an experience they had, or because they already have a feeling without even going in, that they would not be accepted. Their child would not be met, they would not be welcomed. And there's a lot of fear based, I think, on both sides, on families coming in and on people in churches. So talk, talk a little bit about small churches, like, like, why don't we do better? What's what's the problem here?

Kim Botto: 5:35

Well, you said Fear. I think as a fear, as a church leader, we think we're going to get it wrong, or we don't know what to do, or we're concerned. I hear a lot of church leaders that talk about, Yeah, but what are the other What about the other kids? This child is going to come in and be a distraction, but the way we interact with a kid who's different is we're modeling to the children in the room, how they should do it. And if we say there isn't a place for you here, then what they grow up believing is, if somebody's different, it's not somebody I engage with, they go someplace else. And I was actually meeting with somebody this morning that said, you know, small churches can't do this because of their resources. I said, Well, actually, in order to provide a safe, welcoming place where kid does feel belonging, the most important resource is the people. Yeah, it happens through relationship. And I would argue that at the larger churches, it's even harder, because it's not throwing a bunch of money at it, or throwing a bunch of money at this, you know, ministry, or at a child. It's people really knowing that sweet little Laurie loves the red haired doll, doll that's in the corner of the room, and so when she comes in, we're going to have that doll waiting for her. Or we know that Frank, when the music starts, it's going to be over stimulating for him, and he may start acting out, but we know that he loves walking in the halls. So I just want to encourage small churches, you've got the resources, because you have the relationships you know the kids so much more intimately than a church with 1000s where they don't even have the same teachers every week. Yeah, yeah. Oh,

Laurie Graham: 7:32

I love it. I love that you went right there, because it's so true. We we hear this a lot. Small churches don't have the resources. We can't do that we can't reach. You know, families with these different needs, or kids who think differently or behave differently because we don't have enough money for an aid or we don't have a paid staff. But the reality is, I have seen small churches do better, yes, with different difference differences in thinking, in behavior, dealing with families who have trauma, then large churches, because small churches can pivot much more quickly, absolutely and almost on a dime, if we know we can. But there's there's that fear, that there's that confidence. So I love that you already just kind of went there, that it's really the relationships that's what makes us able and equipped right to support

Kim Botto: 8:27

you. Brought up like getting a paid aid to work with a kid. I will talk to churches who want to do that, and I'll say, well, is the paid aid a believer? And often I met with you know, blank stares like, What do you mean? And I said, we want that kid to be discipled, regardless of whether they're verbal, regardless of whether they can move from room to room on their own two feet. We want them to know Jesus. So we want the person who is most intimately involved with them while they're at church to be a follower of Jesus so they can disciple that child,

Laurie Graham: 9:01

yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So Kim, let's talk about your experience with small churches, because I know you've been in small churches, medium sized churches, big churches, probably really, really big churches. What do you always see in small churches? And what are some steps if someone's listening right now and says, like, we don't even have anyone maybe that we even know about, that we're not meeting this but how do we go about making our church a welcome place where every child really could find find their place in church? I think

Kim Botto: 9:32

the most important tool is Be curious. So start looking around at kids who maybe have difficulty and talk to the parents. I would also say, if you look around and you don't believe that you have any child who's experienced trauma or who is neuro divergent has disabilities at your church, they should be there because they're everywhere else. You know, one out of 36 kids. Being diagnosed with autism, two thirds of kids experience trauma by the time they're 16. So they're there. If they're not there, if they're truly not there, it might be that people don't know that your church is a place they can come to. So I would start looking in the community for a family who maybe has a deep desire to go to church, but thinks church isn't the place for them. Invite them in, or if you already have a kid there, figure out what that one kid needs. We're not trying to make our church a place for every kid in the world. We're trying to make it a place for the kids who are either already there, the kids are in our neighborhoods, so work with a parent, figure out what's best for that kid. You might need want to get some fidgets. You might need to get some noise. Noise canceling headphones are always a great thing to have around, because a lot of kids from trauma and who are neurodiverse have sensory issues as far as loud noises. So start building up your your kind of library of supplies for kids, and work with that individual kid to see what they need. And what I'll hear, though, is, yeah, but we don't have enough volunteers. Do you see my volunteer list? I can't even staff the elementary room. How am I going to get somebody to be a buddy? I think we're looking in the wrong fishing pond. We keep going back to the same pond, going back to the people already in children's ministry to be a one on one buddy. What I have found is a lot of times you'll have somebody who's sitting in worship every week that hasn't found their place to serve, and they would never raise their hand to be in charge of a room in kids ministry. But if you tell them, hey, we have Bianca, and I've seen you, you know, wave to her when you come by, she just needs somebody to hang out with her. And when the noise level gets too high, she needs somebody to go out in the hall with her. Most of the we call it inclusion team, people's on the team to help kids be fully included. Most of those did not come from our children's ministry volunteers. They came from people in the church that wanted kids to know Jesus, but didn't want to be responsible for a room full of kids, but said, Absolutely, I'll be responsible for one kid.

Laurie Graham: 12:24

Yeah. Well, and I also want to see not just that they don't want to be responsible for kids, but they may not even have the gift mix to teach or the gift mix to lesson plan or classroom management, but the gifts to love a kid, to sit with a kid, to take a walk with a kid. It's so different. I want to go back just a little bit to something you said earlier, because we have, like, small churches listening on here, who would never have an inclusion team. They just have somebody who's teaching Sunday school, and it's a mixed age classroom, like, it's like three years old to 12 year olds in the same room, and maybe they've got three kids or six kids or eight kids, and you mentioned early, I don't know, just a minute or so ago, about noise canceling headphones, and also about fidget toys. And I just want to say to anybody listening, who has heard one of our podcasts on inclusion, who has come to one of our conferences where we've talked about this, and I just want to say, did you get them yet? Did you get the noise canceling headphones yet? We're not even talking about volunteers. We're talking about having a pair of noise canceling headphones and some fidget toys on hand. You know, like, I think sometimes we make it so big we can't do it all, that we don't do the little things. And I think even having a pair of noise canceling headphones sitting in a basket in the foyer of your church. Can signal to a family coming in, maybe visiting or maybe with, you know, relatives they have at home that they won't even bring and say, Oh, this church gets it. They see it. So whether or not you're ready to volunteer staff this, please just, just do the do something to start letting people know that you even get it, that you get how much a pair of noise canceling headphones can mean to one person,

Kim Botto: 14:13

right? And I love your suggestion of hanging it in the church foyer, church lobby, so people come in. And also, I've seen some churches. Sandra peoples has all kinds of amazing resources, and they have what they call a buddy bag, and has buddy bag on it. And when you come to their church, they're hanging there, and it has fidgets in there. And if you haven't gotten fidget yet, get on Amazon, you can get, like, a starter pack for not much money. And I'll say I used to call them toys too, and then I heard somebody say fidgets are tools, not toys and the hands of kids who need them, I'm like, Oh, that's good, because what that does, it changes our mindset. This isn't a toy for a kid. This is a tool that this child needs in order to more. Fully participate in order to hear what's going on, in order to feel calm and safe. Because sometimes I'll talk to leaders and they'll say, Well, I'll give them their their fidget but then once they, you know, seem regulated, I'll take it away, and then they have a hard time, and I'm like, well, guess what? My question to them is, why would you take it away? That's right, because it's a tool. You don't you, you let them keep that tool. And so many of our kids, you know, because then the question is, but is it fair to the other kids if they can't have one? Well, for one, they're pretty cheap. You can distribute them. But also, what I love in the schools is so many of these kids who have differences are in the mainstream classrooms. So our kiddos now are used to kids using tools so that they can participate, whether it be the headphones or something that they hold in their hand.

Laurie Graham: 15:56

You know, I You just changed my verbiage. So thank you on that, because I will, I will always remember that, because it is like toys are like a reward, right? Like we think toys are a reward, and you have to, like, earn a toy, but a tool, a fidget tool. Like, I love that you just change my words and and words are important. I also love that you just brought up the inclusion that happens in our schools, elementary, high school, college. You know children who are in in the public school settings or in the the charter schools, the inclusion that happens they are seeing kids with differences their age all the time, but they don't see it at church. What does that tell you? Right? Like, I mean, I'm kind of sad right now that that at schools, they they really the the way they work with inclusion is so different, but yet at churches, we don't usually see that. That's pretty sad,

Kim Botto: 16:57

yeah, and I think it comes from an ignorance, and I don't mean to use that word in an ugly way, but it's just, it's it's lack of awareness. It's thinking that you the adult may think, Oh, I'm not qualified to work with an autistic child, but you are. If you have the ability to form relationships with people, you can form relationships with an autistic child. You know, what do you do when you first meet somebody? You discover what their interests are. Now, if this kid is non verbal, it might be a little harder. You might have to test out some things on what they really like and what they don't or talk to their parent. Their parent is the expert on them, and kids know if we like them and then we enjoy being with them. Yeah, and so often, if we're scared, we're going to give off the vibe that we're not enjoying them at all. So if we can get over that fear and just relax, and yeah, they might have a meltdown. And so then we'll try a snack or a walk or get out their favorite toy. It's it's really experimenting with what's best for that kid, because ultimately, we want them in church. Because if that child can't be in church, often, their parents can't be in church, your planes can't be in church. It sends a message to the relatives who are maybe thinking about church, they're going, well, if they won't take my nephew, why would I want to go there? Yes, so it's, it's about much more than the child. Yeah, can

Laurie Graham: 18:29

we talk about the fear factor? Because I think the fear often isn't the child. It often is. There's a lot of fear that we're going to do something wrong, that we're going to say something offensive, that we're going to do something to make it worse. And I think oftentimes that fear causes us to not act or not notice or pretend we're not noticing or ignore something when clearly, I mean sometimes, like the parent is completely overwhelmed and everybody's trying to protect them, like, Oh, we don't see that, you know. Oh, that must you know, like we're pretending nothing's happening because we don't want to put them on the spot. But what do we do with our own fear of doing something wrong or saying something wrong, or feeling like we're over our head?

Kim Botto: 20:08

Well, first of all, I think proximity helps alleviate fear, often, because often fear, it's a fear of the unknown. So sitting down with a parent who has a child who is not typical, and just getting to know them. What? What's your favorite TV show? What do you guys like to eat for dinner? What are some big challenges you're having so often, what we do is we go straight without any relationship, we grow to go straight to the what do you need? What can I do for you? Well, I don't, I don't know about you, but sometimes when I'm super overwhelmed, I can't even tell you what I need. So yeah, get get to know. And that's where small churches have an advantage, because a lot of times they already know, even if that family. Me is new. They already know something about them or who they're friends with, so just sit down with them. Talk about the kid, what they like to do, not just their challenging behavior, but talk about what they like to do, what their favorite things are. I was talking to a church and they found out that I can't remember what the item? Oh, it was Legos. There's a certain kind of Lego this kid loved. And this family never been to their church, and it took months after the conversation before the family came, but when they came, they had this kid's favorite Legos waiting. Now we're talking like a $5 $5 $10 pack of Legos. Wow. But that's what happens in the context of relationship, yeah, and that's what smaller groups of people have the ability to know each other better than a big place. So I just want to, man, I just want to shout through the rooftops, if you well, people who are listening to this are in small churches, and you have the right tools, you have the right people, and there's a whole bunch of us that want to help you too.

Laurie Graham: 22:06

Yeah, yeah, I love it. Now you emphasize that creating a space where every child belongs isn't just about inclusion. So what's the difference like between creating an inclusive environment versus creating a place where every child belongs,

Kim Botto: 22:22

well, included. I mean, you can come on in, you can sit down, but we want kids to be able to contribute in their own way. We want them to be cared for, but we also want to provide the opportunity for them to care for others. Because no matter what your abilities are, you you want to help other people. We've all got this, this desire to help other people. We also we want to have friends. And it's it's one thing to be invited to come in, but it's another thing to actually feel like you have friends in that space, and a four year old knows when they have friends and when they don't. And when I talk to parents of kids, especially kids who are neurodivergent, because you're talking about autism, ADHD, a lot of these differences that cause behavior challenges, and also they miss, sometimes miss social cues, and so they often feel isolated. So for them to belong, the kids in our group then come to know, oh, Bobby loves trains, and he's going to talk about trains the whole time he's here. And the teacher knows that too. So even if she's talking about Noah, she in some way, is going to insert a picture of a train or talk about a train, because Jesus

Laurie Graham: 23:43

did that, right? He did. He absolutely did. He did that. And so we can do that too.

Kim Botto: 23:49

I love it. Okay, a kid, if kid really feels known and seen. Yeah.

Laurie Graham: 23:54

Okay. So since you went there about the train and Noah, I was going to ask you a couple super practical challenges that come up real specific in smaller churches. And I'm just going to throw it out there and see what you would say. So let's say a teacher is trying to get through a lesson. We've got a multi age classroom going on, which is very, very typical, and she cannot get through this lesson because we have a kid who's just different and keeps interrupting or has some behavioral issues. What is your best advice for that teacher?

Kim Botto: 24:26

Well, there should always be at least two adults in the room for safety thing, no matter how small the church is, and the person at the front should not be the one trying to figure out what this kid needs. So the leader who's on the floor with the kids, you might give them, if this kid is able to write, give them a dry erase board. Because everybody loves a dry erase board. Have them write down their questions or their stories they want to share on that. Or you could give them maybe two straws, and you can say, okay, during this time, you can ask two questions or but then once you use up your straws, then we're going to wait until afterwards. Wow, a lot of times they simply don't understand what the expectations are. And I would be curious if a church does say that too. Have you communicated the expectations to the kid, and that doesn't mean just saying stop talking, but really clear. As far as you can ask, you can raise your hand and say something two times during this large group, and here are two straws or popsicle sticks to help you remember. And I'm going to sit by you, because the one thing we don't want to do is we don't want the person up at the front shaming them, which can come in the form of telling them to stop talking. We want that to happen one on one, and also we first, let's stop and celebrate that this kid is engaged. Yeah. So this kid is engaged, and we're just gonna need to work with them to make sure that their engagement doesn't just totally derail us and distract everybody. I

Laurie Graham: 26:07

love it. I love the tip about the it should not be the adult at the front that's even working with the course correction. That's such a great tip. Okay? Another scenario, we've got a small church where kids are in the service, so they do family services. There's always children in the service, and there is a family with a neurodivergent child, or maybe more than one, and pastor is frustrated, does not like the behavior happening. People around, don't know what to do, don't know how to help. What do we do?

Kim Botto: 26:42

That is hard,

Laurie Graham: 26:45

amen, and it's common. Can I just say that? If anyone listening, if this happens in your church, this is super, super common. So let's hear what Kim has to

Kim Botto: 26:54

say. I mean, I mean, I think of Jesus doing Sermon on the Mount. Yeah, don't you imagine there were kids doing all kinds of things, and then they're eating, they're eating their fish sandwiches, and they're so well, let me give you, let me give you a an example. Okay, I have a friend who has two kids who are autistic. Christmas Eve, big, huge service. One of our kid escapes within her reach, runs up to the stage, you know, huge service. The pastor sees the kid, and the kid was dancing. You know what the pastor did, grab the kid by the hand, dance with the kid on stage, and then dance that kid all the way back to their parent so so much of it starts with a change in mindset. And so it's, it's disappointing. I mean, there are different levels of distraction. Often the speaker is much more distracted than anybody else is. So I think it's determining really what is the level of distraction. Are people in the service truly distracted by it? I think offering to help the family, you know, maybe this is a child that simply can't sit in the worship service, so work with them. Maybe they love the music, so they can stay in there for the music part, and they can go back in an area where the noise wouldn't be heard, and they can find out what their favorite things are. They love to play with clay or they like to line up Matchbox cars, get some of those things to do for them back there. Now, what this will mean in a small church, a lot of times they only have one service. Somebody might miss service to do that, but what we're doing is we're enabling the parent who is caring for the child. 24/7, yeah, and may not be able to go to Bible studies and may not be able to go out to coffee with their friends, but they can't have an hour in service. So I would say, if we're sitting there, we're super distracted. Let's look for a way that we can help.

Laurie Graham: 28:55

Yeah, nice. I love it. Okay, one final question, as we're kind of running out of time, but one final question. And maybe you don't have something for this, but it popped to mind, is there anything that we do in our church situations, especially small churches, that where we think we're doing the right thing, like we think we've done this really, really well, and you're like, and it's a little bit misguided, or, you know, like, there's something trendy that we're doing now, I think you even mentioned, like, having a separate room or something. But is there anything that we're doing with our efforts that you would be like, yeah, that's not really the best idea.

Kim Botto: 29:33

Well, since you mentioned the separate room, I'll say, I think a lot of smaller churches think they can't do this ministry because they don't have a separate room. You don't need a separate room. I'm not saying this separate room is bad for breaks. You know, when a kid's having a hard day, but what we want is, we want the kid to be included as much as they possibly can. So that I wanted to address this the separate room, I would say, as far as and this isn't just small churches, this is everybody. We make presumptions without really knowing the kid or the parent. We think we know what's best, and we don't. So I'll go back to what I've said before, and that is, build a relationship with that family. Get to know them. Be flexible. You know, what works today might not work tomorrow, or what works when they first get there, might not work at the end of the hour, but just that's what Jesus did. Jesus was, I mean, Jesus knows all and he still asks tons of questions. So ask questions, not in an interrogation kind of way, but in caring, compassionate way to get to know them. So we can really serve them. Yeah, churches, you can do it.

Laurie Graham: 30:50

We can. We actually totally can.

Kim Botto: 30:52

You're the best at relationships. Hmm, I love it. I

Laurie Graham: 30:56

love it so much. Hey, Kim, can you tell everybody about your recent book? Yeah.

Kim Botto: 31:00

So it's called boundless hope for every child. And I wrote it because there were so many churches and also schools that I would go to and they go, we just don't know what to do. And so it's a very simple it starts with, what do we really believe about kids? It talks about some science and statistics about why some kids are different and how their brains are wired differently. And then it's filled with practical ideas. What do you do with a child who has a challenging behavior with a family where you're not sure how to best support them. So tons of practical stuff. I love the tagline

Laurie Graham: 31:40

on the cover of your book. It says, because I wrote it down, help for the hurting, compassion for the misunderstood, and belonging for the lonely. That's the one that got me

Kim Botto: 31:50

way to go to know that. Yeah, longest tagline ever. But yeah, that's what we want, because so many of the kids that come into our churches, they are lonely, they're misunderstood, and they're hurting, and we can all help, like, Help, yeah, we can help. I mean, compassion. We can be compassionate, and we can provide a place for them to belong. So, yeah. So yeah, people can get if you go to kimbotto.com it's got Kim B, o, t, t, o.com, it's got all the ways to order it, and it's just supposed to be a simple or it is a simple guide to help churches truly be a place for every kid.

Laurie Graham: 32:31

Yeah, that's so awesome. And if people want to learn more from you, follow you get in touch with you. What's the best way? I

Kim Botto: 32:39

mean, you know, I'm on all those socials, um kimbato.com or at kimbato on Instagram, or if you just go to kimbato.com

Laurie Graham: 32:47

It links to all the stuff. So great. So great. Thank you so much, Kim for taking the time to be with us today. So

Kim Botto: 32:54

I so appreciate your ministry, because most of the churches in our country are what would be considered small churches. So what you do is very important. So you rock on, sister, keep on.

Laurie Graham: 33:07

Thanks. Yeah, most of the churches around the world, yeah, the small church statistics are are amazing and hopeful. Like, I don't even think it's a sad thing. I think it's amazing, like I just see all these beacons of light. I always end the podcast with my little phrase of, be a light and Kim, like you are a light, like you are shining a light in such a unique, cool, like niche, which I think is becoming so much more like we're becoming more aware, yes, yes, like we're not hiding away things and people and uniquenesses, like has happened in generations past. And I think as we raise our awareness and like you talk about, like, getting rid of this fear, simple things that we all can do so that every child can find their place in church, like for people sakes, that's so Jesus like, isn't it? Yes,

Kim Botto: 34:00

yes. And when you know, in the Psalms, they talk about, we're fearfully and wonderfully made. It's not just typical people. Yeah, we are all fearfully and wonderfully made. And sometimes we might need to dig a little deeper to see all the wonderful and amazing stuff, but it is there. Because if you believe that these kids are created in the image of God, there is a bunch of good, amazing things in them, yeah.

Laurie Graham: 34:26

And you know the story where Jesus says, Let the little children come to me, like, I think about that sometimes. And so there's these squirrely kids around. And you know, people are like, get the kids away. Get the kids away. Okay, let me just tell you the kids that Jesus was saying, Let the kids come to me. They weren't the well behaved ones, because the well behaved ones were back there with their parents. Like, these are the kids that were already squirrely and misbehaving, or what we would call misbehavior, right? Like they were the different kids who who weren't sitting nicely with their hands folded in their lap, and Jesus didn't say, let the well behaved kids come to me. He said, Let the kids come. Let them

Kim Botto: 35:02

come. I actually, my daughter in law did an image. She's got it on Etsy, because I said, I go to these conferences, and I think people, their belief, so their mindset about kids, is that image of Jesus with the children, where they're all in white and they're all just their eyes are locked on Him, LISTENING, which? And she goes, What do you think it looked like? And I said, I think there's kids spilling stuff. I think there's kids double dishes, dipping in the goldfish. There's kids are under the table, on the table. So she drew that image of Jesus with kids that are doing all this stuff. Because, yeah, when he and what he's what he said that, he didn't say what kind of kids? Yeah, so he says, All kids. So here's the church. We need to do that too, and church do not do it alone. Reach out for help. There are a lot of people in this space that want to help churches be a place for all kids to belong. Yeah.

Laurie Graham: 35:55

Yeah, well, thanks for being one of those people for us. Kim, thank you. All right, y'all I hope this gave you some food for thought. And if you don't have a pair of noise canceling headphones in your foyer, just go get one. If you don't have fidget tools, just go get them. You can start there. If you have a family who's coming that it feels like their kid is just sitting outside the circle. We don't even say you have to assume anything, just somebody who doesn't seem included, just reach out, build those relationships, because that's what it's about. So All right, y'all until next week, be a light you