167: Healthy Responses To Church Conflict: What to Do When Silence Isn’t The Solution | Brenna Fields Hayes

In this episode, host Laurie Graham and guest Brenna Fields Hayes dive into the topic of healthy responses to church conflict. 

They discuss the prevalence of unresolved conflict in many churches and the importance of creating safe environments for open communication. 

Brenna shares insights on: 

• the role of personal responsibility
• evaluating one's own motives and emotional readiness
• finding scriptural guidance during challenging times

This conversation offers practical steps for navigating conflict in a measured, prayerful manner, benefiting volunteers, ministry leaders, and anyone seeking to foster healthier, more unified church communities.

Connect with Brenna Fields Hayes:
www.newseasonnewday.com

Join our free Facebook Community: www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry


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Transcript

Laurie Graham: 0:01

Hey, welcome to the small church ministry podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host. Laurie Graham, let's dive in. You. You. Hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of the small church ministry podcast. You know, on this show, we've had so many guests talking about so many different things. We love to highlight what's working in small churches by talking with people who are working in small churches, sometimes I go into solo episodes about, you know, my theory behind volunteers and that they weren't made to do ministry, but we're supposed to do ministry with them. And so we have so many different topics we talk about on the show. And today, I have a special guest with us, and we're going to be talking about conflict, but before anybody who's listening kind of starts to bristle, we're going to talk about healthy responses to church conflict, and Brina fields hay is pastors. Along with her husband, she has decades of experience, not just in church ministry, but also in the business field. And it's just so cool to have a perspective that's coming from a lot of different angles, a lot of different sides. And so Brina, we are so happy to have you here, especially to talk about this topic, which is a big, let's just say the elephant in the room, right? The big elephant in the room, yeah, before we jump in, though, do you want to tell everybody a little bit about you? Maybe a little bit about what you're doing in ministry, or your experience?

Brenna Fields Hayes: 1:31

Sure. So I have, as you said, been working in ministry and in the corporate space for decades. Sometimes that's hard for me to believe, but what I'm doing now in ministry, I do a lot of teaching at my church. I'm doing some speaking, and my passion in ministry is to ensure that people have a greater understanding of God's word, so they can apply it to their lives and so that their lives can be transformed. Yeah, so that's what I love. I love seeing when light bulbs come on and people get it and they can connect that biblical story to their own lives, and how what the person in biblical times experienced can help them as well. Help them to grow, grow closer to Christ, grow closer as as a believer. So that's that's my jam. I love

Laurie Graham: 2:32

it. I love it. One of the reasons I was super excited to have you on the podcast, because you and I have had conversations before. You've spoken at the conferences, always just love everything you have to say, but, but one of the reasons I thought this would be such a great topic for us to talk about is because of your experience in the business world. As you said, in the corporate world, you know, sometimes people bristle about churches, and it's like, we're not, we're not a business. Well, a lot of churches really do run like businesses. However, I just want to say that some things that are happening in the business world are actually happening better than in the church, and I think our churches should be better at loving, should be better at letting people go well, should be better at welcoming. Should be better at onboarding new volunteers. Think about some of the systems that happen in businesses that are working well, that are pretty beautiful, that sometimes can even be protective in a way that with HR departments, right? And not we're all smooth or perfect. I get that a lot of bad things happen in all sorts of places, but what can we learn together, and how can we do better as a church? So I'm going to throw this. I'm going to just throw random questions out. Well, not so random questions out to you, Brina, but a few things I've thought about. But one of the things for me that I've seen more and more over the past few years of interacting with 1000s of small churches, 1000s of people in 1000s of small churches, is this, I'll just say, an epidemic of unresolved conflict, like, it's almost like people are walking and holding their breath in meetings, feeling like they shouldn't bring something up that it would be causing division. You know, there's a lot of phrases we throw out that are almost justifying not resolving conflict. So do you see this in churches? I know you do a lot of coaching. I know you you, you know, interrelate with a lot of people all over the place. Have you seen this in your churches? And do you see this in churches, like, am I just making this up, that this is a problem.

Brenna Fields Hayes: 4:22

No, you're not making it up. I do see it in churches. I see that people are hesitant sometimes to express their true feelings about a thing, because they don't know how others will react. They don't know how others will receive it. So, yeah, that it's a real thing. In fact, today I was in a meeting, and I really wanted to say something that I knew was going to rock the boat in this particular setting, but I hesitated the. Because I wasn't sure. I didn't want to derail the whole meeting, right? Yeah, so I wasn't sure how it would be received. I didn't feel that I was prayed up enough to be able to address the issue, and it is a big elephant in the room in this particular space. So I paused, and I didn't say anything. I talked to my husband about it afterwards, but I didn't say anything. But the reality is the elephant still exists.

Laurie Graham: 5:38

Yeah, I love that you mentioned that you paused, because I think a pause is mature and often needed, yes, but when we shove things under the rug, ignore them, pretend they're not there, or think that they're gonna go away with time, right? I think that's when we're misstepping Correct,

Brenna Fields Hayes: 6:00

and if we don't address conflict in a healthy way, there is going to be an explosion at some point, and that is not what we want, right? We want our conflict a resolution to be a measured, well thought out, well prayed over response and experience. So there's no collateral damage as a result of an explosion that might happen, because someone is just up to here. They can't take it anymore and it they just blow. Yeah, and that when that happens, there's more damage control that needs to occur, as opposed to if we had just maybe talked it out in a more measured way.

Laurie Graham: 6:53

So what is in your mind? What is healthy conflict resolution? Because we had a great podcast episode last year that talked about conflict. And the gentleman talking talked about, you know, resolving conflict is this opportunity for deeper relationships, which is totally true. Yes, totally true. Like, there's a lot of beauty. The people that I have the closest relationships, we have had conflict, we've just resolved them, yes, and it's making us deeper and stronger because of it. So what does healthy conflict resolution look like?

Brenna Fields Hayes: 7:23

I think it starts with a safe environment, an environment where each party can express their point of view without judgment, without criticism, actually hearing the other party out, and active listening is really key here, not listening to respond, but listening to understand. So creating a safe space in a safe environment for someone to truly express themselves, I think is the beginning of healthy conflict, because if this the space isn't safe, then the parties are a little hesitant about sharing. They may not feel as if their point of view has is valued. So yes and

Laurie Graham: 8:24

often, and I want to talk about this because often it's not valued like our fears are being hesitant, of not wanting to speak up, of like they're based in a reality. They're based in the reality of when we weren't listened to, right? Somebody didn't, didn't even maybe we were listened to, but they literally minimized us and said they don't care, and our feeling doesn't matter, because we're going in this direction anyway. Like I think we have a lot of fears around that. In my life, I would honestly say, if I look at, you know, I don't know, my entire life, I've had very few safe spaces, and even now, there's more spaces I walk into that are probably relatively unsafe and safe. Yeah, so how do we how do we do that, like, if we need to start with a safe place? And Brina, you know our audience, you know you're speaking to mostly volunteers, the core volunteers, the backbone of small churches right now, some pastors, some ministry leaders, but a lot of those people who just serve, I want to say, serve in the shadows. Sometimes, you know, like they're shining in the shadows. How, how do we find, define or create safe spaces? I think

Brenna Fields Hayes: 10:06

it's a process to create a safe space, especially where there is not one where this where the space may be unsafe for some, again, I have to go back to really listening to one another. Yeah, the women's ministry at my church, we pray on Tuesday and Thursday mornings at six. Am. And one of the things we talk about in every time we come together is unity. And we share a unity verse to re emphasize the fact that we are one, right as the body of Christ. And so we've, I believe we've gotta grasp onto that concept of being one, of being united, and if we're one, we will do the work that's required to make sure that all of us in this oneness feel safe.

Laurie Graham: 11:11

Yeah, because if we're one, we don't want to rip the other person apart, because they're part of us. Like, think about like, if my arm's hurting, I'm not cutting it off. I'm going to the chiropractor, or I'm getting a massage, or I'm going to the therapist, you know. But in churches, so often, and not just churches, in a lot of spaces in our social culture, we don't have that unity. I love that you said that. Like, I love that emphasis, you know. The other thing is, you were talking, I was thinking too about, as you said, like, create a safe space, active listening without judgment. How much influence do you think we have when we become that person? Like, I think a lot of times we think, Oh, I don't have a safe space. But Am I really a safe space for people? That's, you know, because I've definitely had a lot of times in my life when I wasn't, I look back going, Wow, I was not. I wasn't a safe place, you know. And I think that's a tough I think that's a tall order, listening without judgment, listening, you know, with the curiosity, with with the care, without letting our the hair on the back of my neck rise up in defensiveness, or, yeah, kind of interesting. Think about that. You

Brenna Fields Hayes: 12:16

said something. It should start with us, right? It's not about you. Shouldn't help us make this a safe space. What are we doing as individuals to ensure that everyone feels safe enough to share, to communicate and to express when there's conflict. So wow, because I believe has to take that upon herself. Let me be a party of one. Yeah, and as I walk into a particular space, I'm going to be, yeah, safety, yeah, even if those around me are not necessarily right,

Laurie Graham: 13:04

yeah, yeah. You know, I think the other thing that might play in here and tell me if this is a good idea or a bad idea, because I'm really looking at you for wisdom for this. So sometimes our quietness, you know, like I do believe we can protect ourselves if we feel like we're in an unsafe place. I never tell people to be vulnerable if they're going to get shot down, right? But I wonder if there's a middle ground there between not sharing and being quiet, where we could say, you know, I don't feel super comfortable, but I'm not ready to share, because I don't think I'll be heard like, is saying something like that? Like, is that like a I don't know. Is that like, Is that causing more conflict? Or can we be that honest, in a room full of people,

Brenna Fields Hayes: 13:45

I think it could cause more conflict. So my thought would be, we're praying this through right, because we want to handle conflict well, and so I would hear God to see what he says about how I should and what I should say, when I should say it, because we don't want to cause more damage, right? And somehow of us just wanting to be heard. So, yeah, I think this is when we listen to the Holy Spirit and and measure our responses, and maybe today is not the day for me to share, because I've got this going on. I left a mess at home. I got this going on at work, and I'm just not in a right, in a good space and place to share. So I work on myself so that when I do share, I'm not causing collateral damage,

Laurie Graham: 14:57

yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, you know, and I think sometimes it's it's not sharing in the group, but it's sharing privately later, sometimes to the pastor, sometimes the ministry leaders. I think also, like when we don't feel safe in a certain committee, in a certain group, in a certain when is the time to say, I really am uncomfortable, I don't feel safe. I should not be in this group, you know, like, when is there a time to pull back and kind of step out? Because we also don't want to bail, you know, when we are, you know, committed to a people and a group, and yet, sometimes. If there are unhealthy spaces for us. So do you have any advice on that one?

Brenna Fields Hayes: 15:36

I think that too, stepping back is a measured response. This is not something we just jump out and do, right? Yeah, maybe we start by pulling back from a particular committee. And maybe there's another committee that's more that's better suited for us before we just throw the whole thing away. Yeah, I think we just take baby steps and again, hear God, because God wants us to be in community, right? We're supposed to fellowship with one another. We're not supposed to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. We know the Scriptures right, but sometimes it does take work, but I believe that we're to just hear God as to what spaces when sometimes we maybe just need a break.

Laurie Graham: 16:33

I love that you said a measure, measured response. And I was thinking, like, I was thinking how slow Jesus moved, and he just, he really was never rushed. Like, you know, people are dying around him. There's injustice everywhere. He's about to get killed, and he's never running. He's never rushing. And I think sometimes when we have, like, this unresolved conflict or things happening, you know, the elephant in the room. I think it's really good to slow down and say, Okay, this isn't a rush. Like nobody's panicking. God knew this was going to happen ahead of time. It's happening. But I also really love the title of our podcast, when we said what to do, because you and I worked on this, what to do when silence isn't the solution, but the opposite of silence isn't just blurting out in the committee correct like, I think sometimes we need to break the silence just in our own hearts, because I think sometimes we shut it down, we ignore ourselves, and we don't deal with our own hurt. And I think that's an opportunity even have God coming in. Yes, is sometimes God does some really cool stuff in ourselves, but we cannot ignore the fact, like, just in ourselves, we can't be like, Oh, well, I'm going to pretend that didn't happen, you know? Like, I mean, that's not good for us internally, right?

Brenna Fields Hayes: 17:46

Right? I think too, Laurie, we have to investigate and evaluate our motives. Why do I want to say what I have to say,

Laurie Graham: 17:59

and why do I feel like this? I think that's really important.

Brenna Fields Hayes: 18:02

Yeah, yeah. Do do I want to lash out at someone, to get back at them? Or do I really desire to express how I'm feeling because I want to make things better, so I think we need to look at ourselves to make sure that we're coming from the right place with the right motivation,

Laurie Graham: 18:21

yeah, and even being aware, because sometimes when you said right, I kind of was like, well, right, wrong. You know, it's kind of hard, like, but understanding what that, because a lot of times we don't know our own motivation. I had a coaching call with some women in women's ministry the other day, and one of the women shared that there's a problem person, you know, like, that's how they would have been labeled, and they decided to leave the ministry area, and there was a lot of anger and frustration. And when I asked her, but how do you feel? Well, this shouldn't have happened. And I said, but how do you feel? And she's, oh, I actually feel really hurt, and I'm embarrassed because it was public, because this woman said some things in public, and the whole conversation shifted, because behind the anger and the frustration there was, there was our hurt selves feeling like they don't like me, you know. And I think so much of even as as a as a grown adult, you know, 55 here, you know, for me, I still have that like, I wish they don't like me, like and when we get to that motivation, the place of conflict shifts a little. Have you ever experienced that where you felt one way, and then when you actually sat back, you're like, Oh, that's not even what's going on in me.

Brenna Fields Hayes: 19:37

And that takes time to explore and to recognize, right? So that's why we shouldn't jump out and make a decision or say a thing before we've actually gotten to the root of what's really happening. And a lot of times it is, I'm hurt. I want it to be accepted, and I'm not. And so we have to acknowledge that within ourselves. And then, you know,

Laurie Graham: 20:06

that totally changes the conversation, doesn't it like it totally changes

Brenna Fields Hayes: 20:11

the conversation? And then I've got to encourage myself in the Lord, just like David did, right? Because even if people don't like me necessarily the way I want them to, I can go back to the Word and say, but God loves me, and he has a plan. For my life, right? So if I'm rooted in him, my identity is in him. I'm less concerned, less worried about people not liking me, right? I'm just I'm in ministry. I'm here serving to the glory of God, and God, has those people who are for me, right? Yeah,

Laurie Graham: 20:56

we're all not. It's hard to admit, it's hard to admit that everybody isn't going to like me, you know, and being okay with that, and, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking like, when I lately, as I've and on just the last couple years, becoming even more aware of this, you know, probably the last 10 years of my life, maybe, but I'm noticing that if I can't say it softly, I'm not ready to speak yet. That's good. And I'm curious, like for you, how do you know when you're ready to speak or when you're ready to confront something? And I know you've spoken about like hearing from the Lord, but we're all in different places with the confidence that we have in that and so practically, like in your body, in your mind, in your heart. Like, what is it that lets you know, Okay, I'm ready now. Because when you talked about, like, preparing ourselves going back, how you went back and even talked to your husband, in this case, you know, whatever happened in the last couple days? Like, for me, one of the things really is, if I can't say it softly, like if I am riled up, if I cannot, if my heart rate is not as slow as it needs to be when I'm resting, it's not time to speak. And that's that that keeps me quiet. Yeah,

Brenna Fields Hayes: 22:03

that is so good. So the conversation I had with my husband today, I've had it with him in the past, right? So it's not a new issue, but today, I could feel a difference in me. I wasn't riled up, I wasn't upset. I just kind of stated the facts. This is what it is. This is what I see. And so to answer your question, I know when I'm ready to really confront conflict and deal with it is when my emotions are kind of in check. I can still feel something, but I'm not overly emotional. I can get through the conversation without my voice cracking, without my face frowning. I do feel it in my body. You know about a thing is this is maybe just not the right time for us to talk and

Laurie Graham: 23:07

and how often is it the time we do talk, like when I think of church meetings gone bad, like it really usually is when, when we are speaking out of this, this, I'm making fists right now, and I have my my face is scrunched up, and my shoulders are tight, and it's like we're coming out of this place of almost like inks or or like, I don't know, just That tenseness. It's tense, yes,

Brenna Fields Hayes: 23:31

yeah. But if we are in a place of peace, we can share what our concerns are from that point of view, from that place, yeah, and it's better received, I believe, becomes because we're coming from a peaceful place.

Laurie Graham: 23:53

Yeah, I think, as you too, I'm thinking when I get to that place, my expectations are also different. I get to that place, honestly, I don't need them to change anything anymore. I might still see it, and I might still wish they did, but it's more of a request and not a demand. Yep,

Brenna Fields Hayes: 24:11

that is good and very true. And at that point, if things change, then great. And if they don't, because there's a chance, right, that things won't change, I'm still okay,

Laurie Graham: 24:29

yeah, and I may stay or I may change my role, or, you know, I may, you know, join a different committee, right? But I am okay. I love that. That's really good.

Brenna Fields Hayes: 24:42

It's hard, though it's hard.

Laurie Graham: 24:44

It is, yeah, none of this is easy.

Brenna Fields Hayes: 24:47

No, it's a process. And we just, we have to just walk it out,

Laurie Graham: 24:52

yeah, yeah, yeah. So true. Wow. My brain is just like, it's like, I'm thinking of situations and circumstances and, you know, things I've said and things I haven't said, and, and, but when there's that tension in the room and there is unresolved. I will just say this straight out. It is not healthy to have unresolved things, whether we resolve it within ourselves and we can be okay, whether we resolve it with another person, whether we resolve it as an entire church or an entire community. And just saying it's resolved, we had this meeting. So this is resolved. That doesn't mean it's resolved, right? And

Brenna Fields Hayes: 25:38

you just said something, the thing may have to be resolved within ourselves, but not resolved anywhere else. And being okay with that, right? I'm okay with the fact that this is what it is. I'm at peace with this, and I'm no longer going to allow it to affect me, even if the situation never changes, yeah, so it's resolved within me, yeah, and I and I'm okay,

Laurie Graham: 26:16

this is such a personal, spiritual growth thing, it is. And this isn't even where I thought our conversation was going to go today, Brina, you know, and for for people listening, if you're listening and you're like, Yeah, that would never work in my situation, Brina and I are talking about years of growth. We're not talking about a meeting. We're not talking about resolving something in two weeks or three months. Like for me, it has been years of growth, of really exploring and being curious and looking at things and talking to people like you Brina, you know, somebody I respect, who's done coaching, who's been, you know, a leader in so many different ways. It's, it's learning from people around us who've been there, done that, grown, walk their path, sharing it with us. And so if anybody's listening and you're like, oh my gosh, I have this huge thing, yeah, we know, we've been there too, right? You know? And, and God is still God, God is still God,

Brenna Fields Hayes: 27:11

and we're still growing, yeah, yes. We've experienced some things, we've grown through some things, and yet we're still growing, yeah, yeah. And so sometimes when there's conflict, I miss it.

Laurie Graham: 27:27

Oh, 100% Yeah. Sometimes they cause it. I mean, I mean accidentally, like, I'm, like, what just happened, right?

Brenna Fields Hayes: 27:36

So, yeah, having, having an awareness of I'm I'm not where I was, yeah, but I'm growing. I'm renewing my mind. I am growing in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, not where I used to be, but I'm in a better place than I was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You

Laurie Graham: 27:56

know, it's fun that you just started throwing out scripture, because I was going to have you close with some scripture, because I know that you love to coach people and use the Bible as a base. And I am, for those of you who might not know me as much, I'm I'm really anti the toxic positivity and throwing Jesus frosting on things. So we're not talking about that. No, like, it's not like a Scripture doesn't solve it, but we learn from scripture, and the scriptures can soak into our hearts. So I was going to ask if you would, what are some of the scriptures like that you cling to, that you hold on to in the middle of conflict situations where you feel torn, or you feel some angst?

Brenna Fields Hayes: 28:34

Yeah, the first one that comes to mind is Isaiah. 26 and three, we'll be in perfect peace as is we keep our minds stayed on him, him being God, so even if there's chaos around us, we can still operate in God's perfect peace, because he is the source of peace. So that's the first one. I think a lot of the scriptures around unity, around the body of Christ, us being one, leading all of the parts we're talking about that today on our women's ministry prayer call this morning about all the parts being important. We can't not have a hand. We need two hands right in the body. We need two eyes. We need two ears. All the parts are important. Yeah. So yeah, just those scriptures again, it's not just quoting them, just to quote them, but they ground us to help us remember as believers that this is our life, this is our lifestyle. Yeah, right, yeah, and yeah, there is conflict even among believers, yeah, yeah. But scriptures can ground us to how we can overcome them and but work on us first. Right? We're not pointing fingers at others, but we're working on us first. I

Laurie Graham: 30:03

was going to mention that because for those listening, I was very aware that the scriptures you were bringing up was about me and my heart and about unity. It was value. It was lifting other people up. When you talk to many people about what Scriptures they go to in conflict, they go to like Matthew 18. We got to bring people in. We got to have people submit. We got to not cause division. And it's about them. And I think for you to say, Hey, this is where we're starting, because that's so Jesus like, because he. In that scripture, if you put it in context, it's about loving people like, exactly. It is not about cutting people off. Is about unity. It's about valuing others. It's about compassion and empathy and grace and growth. Like, let's grow ourselves, and let's also give other people the space to grow, growth

Brenna Fields Hayes: 30:49

that that is so good because we're all on the way? Yeah, we're all at different points on the path, but we're all on the way. None of us has it all figured out, not even our pastors. We're all on the way. Yeah, yeah, and giving one another that grace to walk out our individual journeys in unity,

Laurie Graham: 31:14

yeah. Oh goodness, I could talk to you forever. Brina, I cannot wait to have another conversation with you. We'll do another podcast, or when you're on the conference, you know, speaking at another conference, or whatever it would be. I can't wait. But until then, if people want to get in touch with you or connect with you, what's the best way, and how can they find even what you're doing now, sure. Well,

Brenna Fields Hayes: 31:35

you mentioned that I am a life coach, and I have a life coaching practice, new season, new day, coaching and mentoring. And you can get me at New season, New day.com,

Laurie Graham: 31:45

and we will make sure to drop it in the show notes. Thank you, Brina, so much. Thank you. Love this conversation, good. And I'll be thinking about it way past today.

Brenna Fields Hayes: 31:57

I feel like there's a part two.

Laurie Graham: 32:00

I think there should be, I agree. Let's do it part two. All right, you all I hope you I hope there's one thing from this podcast. You know, sometimes we have so much information, like, it's a lot to process, like, so before we before we leave, like, What's one thing from this podcast? As you're listening that you're like, I'm gonna chew on that. I'm gonna think about that. Because when we've got 15 things, we don't usually do much with it. So just think about like, one thing on this podcast. And I also want to encourage you, wherever you're listening from, to share this podcast with somebody, a friend, a sister, somebody in your church. Um, just share it with one other person and have your own conversation. Because, Reena, I don't know about you, but I feel like I'm growing from this conversation I just had with you. I am too much for listening. Yes, exactly, but I do believe we grow in community. And so share this podcast with somebody, y'all and like, have your own conversation about it, put yourself in it. Like, add some curiosity and thoughtfulness around the things that you're really facing now in your life and your church, because we're excited to see where God takes us off.

Brenna Fields Hayes: 33:05

Amen. Amen.

Laurie Graham: 33:06

Amen. All right, everybody until next Week, be a light you