152: Doing Ministry With Those With Disabilities with Rebecca Wall | Accessibility & Inclusion Series Part 4

Join our conversation with Rebecca Wall as she shares how we can strengthen our churches not by doing ministry for those with disabilities, but by doing ministry with them. 

As the Executive Director of With Ministries, Rebecca’s heart and expertise speak loud and clear. With Ministries “seeks to build church communities where congregations are truly with people experiencing disability, where all are known, have opportunities to serve and lead, and worship alongside fellow believers.” 

Listen in to hear:

• Since 1 out of 4 people have a disability, why don’t our churches reflect that? 
• Why you don’t need a separate ministry or more volunteers to include those with disabilities
• Practical steps to help your church to become a place of belonging for all people
• Tips to communicate inclusion on your website and why it’s vital to start there

Connect with With Ministries:
www.withministries.org
www.instagram.com/withministriesorg

Join our free Facebook Community: www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry


Rate, Review, & Follow Laurie on Apple Podcasts

"I love Laurie and The Small Church Ministry Podcast!!" << If that's like you, please consider rating and reviewing my show! This helps Small Church Ministry support and reach more people -- just like you -- in small churches! Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then, let us know what you loved most about this episode!

Also, if you haven’t done so already, follow the podcast. This is the best way to stay updated on the new episodes we release weekly. If you’re not following, there’s a good chance you’ll miss out on future episodes. Follow now!

Get the Ministry Bundles here!

Transcript

Laurie Acker: 0:01

Hey, this is Laurie Acker, welcome to the small church ministry podcast. Hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of the small church ministry podcast. We are in the middle of a series on accessibility and inclusion, and I'm so excited to have our guest with us today, Rebecca wall is joining us from with ministries. And Rebecca, I'm going to let you introduce yourself and let people know what you do, why you do what you do, and a little bit about with ministries.

Rebecca Wall: 0:38

Perfect. Well, I'm so glad to be here. I love small churches. I'm a part of a small church, and I think there's such beauty of reflecting the fullness of the the body of Christ within a small church. And so excited y'all are my people. So I'm glad to be here, but I have the privilege of serving as the executive director of with ministries, and have a brilliant team of professionals that have come from all over this space, being therapists, teachers, researchers, folks that have spent 20 years in children's ministry, kind of all make up our team, and our hope is to equip church leaders, pastors like yourself, congregants like yourself, to be able to welcome all people into the body of Christ and to disciple all people and to receive the gifts of all people within the church. So our organization, really, our vision is just to see people flourish in the relationship with God, and that means people with and without disabilities doing that together. I am trying to think, what else you need to know. I have been working in this space for over a decade. I had relationships with people with disabilities throughout my entire life, and treasured those friendships, and I think I watched a lot of spaces be accessible to my friends, and the church not be accessible to my friends with disabilities. And so it kind of just sparked this awareness in me, this advocacy piece in me, this wanting to figure out, why, why can Disneyland be the most thoughtful place in the world, and our churches are sending people you know away at times because they're not equipped to welcome them. And so I think it just opened my eyes. And then I think once you really know and understand the reality that that families and individuals are facing and the need for community, the answer should should always be the church. And so my hope is to play a part in changing, changing the culture of the church, so that it looks more like the fullness of the kingdom of God that that God intended. Okay,

Laurie Acker: 2:50

I love this so much because it's very, very true. You know, we look at businesses and industries, and you know how inclusive and the extra, the extra steps that are happening. And I'm always like the church, we should be the safest place. We should be the most welcoming place. We should have it together, not just as together as them, but even more so like so I'm really excited that you even brought that up now with with with your organization, with ministries, what type of disabilities are kind of like what you would focus on, because there's a huge span of this, like we've talked about that in this series, that we really can't cover every single area of accessibility or inclusion or belonging, but we're trying to kind of span out some great questions, you know, ways to be sensitive that really would be adaptable to a lot of different areas of accessibility and inclusion, but you specialize in a certain area with with ministries?

Rebecca Wall: 3:48

Yeah, we are focusing primarily on individuals that have intellectual and developmental disabilities. I will say our supports and where we call the church will serve all people, regardless of ability, but most likely, individuals with intellectual or developmental disabilities are the most kind of marginalized or the most commonly separated from the rest of the body um. And so we're really just trying to equip churches to say like, Hey, if you can make these tweaks, if you can think through ministry this way, if you could add in these accessibility features, if they're going to benefit that individual with an intellectual disability, then that means most likely all people can be present. And so that's kind of where our focus is. I'd say we definitely serve, I mean, all people, but our hope is, our hope is to go for the 100% and that, and that means focusing on that population of

Laurie Acker: 4:50

folks. Okay, I love it. And one of the things when, when we connected most recently, because I've connected with with you and Victoria in other spaces, you know, even the. Couple years. But when I went on to the with homepage, you have a phrase that talks about doing ministry with people with disabilities, not for them or to them. And I use that phrase just in general, just in ministry, like so many times, ministry leaders were trying to do ministry for and to people instead of with but can you talk about that a little bit, because even in our Facebook community, people will say, Do you have a ministry for people with special needs or with people with disabilities? And do you have a ministry for that? And oftentimes it is a separate ministry, and that is not what you all teach. Correct. Correct.

Rebecca Wall: 5:38

Yes, we, we really do. I used to be an educator, an educator. I love prepositions, but we really do try to shift that thinking of church leaders, that we have to do this to somebody or for someone out of maybe a posture of pity or obligation or duty. This is what we should offer, instead of we just want to be with each other as brothers and sisters, as equals in the body of Christ, because I need you and you need me. It's how we were created. Um, so with people, and then obviously the last preposition would be by, like, we want ministry by individuals with disabilities. And so we're really trying to shift the thinking from we'll do this to you and for you to let's do this with you, and give you the opportunity to be blessed by you as well. And so we really do, we try to equip the church to think about all spaces working so that people can be with one another in those spaces. Yeah,

Laurie Acker: 6:38

I want to talk more about what that looks like. But before we do that, I want to go to one of the FAQs on your page on the with ministries website, because the top question on your FAQ page is exactly what we will see people asking in our community. And when we have our conferences, we almost always have things for people with all sorts of abilities. And your FAQ, I'm trying to find it right now says, you know, why would we do that? I don't know. Let me pull it up. Here we go. It says we really don't have many, or any people with disabilities in my church. Why should we engage in this conversation? How would you answer that?

Rebecca Wall: 7:19

Oh, my goodness, I hear that all of the time. Um, I encourage people to think about why. You know, if you're sitting in your your church pew on Sunday morning and you look around and you're not seeing people with intellectual or developmental or any other form of disability present, um, that should make you pause, because the statistics right now say that one in four adults experience some form of a disability. Over half of people over the age of 65 have some form of a cognitive impairment, and one in six children experience disability in some form. And so that's a lot of people. And so when we sit in our congregation and we look around and we don't see that reflected, we should we should pause and we should ask questions, why that's not the case. And so oftentimes, you might not know someone has a disability. It might not be visible, but there are definitely people impacted by disability, probably already within your church body. But then that also is a great call to as we are, called to love our neighbor. People with individuals are our neighbors. So we should be going out and inviting and ushering people into the family of God and saying, We want you here. We need you here. We've prepared a place for you to be, to be a flourishing member of this body. And so I definitely hear we don't have people. And so I challenge people great if you if you don't, then go out and go out and knock on doors in your neighborhood, because one in three households is impacted by disability, statistically speaking. And so I would definitely encourage people to think about that. The statistics,

Laurie Acker: 9:04

yeah, and the sad thing with that, I hear more and more stories of families and people who have tried to find a place to worship, a church family who would welcome them, and they try and it doesn't work. They are misunderstood. No one has prepared a place for them, so they end up just giving up. Like, we cannot try anymore. We have tried. We've left in tears. We've left misunderstood. And it, it just, it hurts my heart so much. And when you said a second ago, like, to be able to say to somebody, we've prepared the place for you. Like, that is that is Jesus, right? Like, I've prepared a place for you. Like, could we prepare a place for people with mental and intellectual developmental disabilities? If I'm saying that right, if I'm phrasing that right, please catch me if I'm being insensitive or using the wrong terms at all, because we've talked about that in this series, too. Like, that, words matter, right? Like, the language we're using around any sort of accessibility, inclusion issues. It matters because it matters to people. So please tell me if I'm saying it wrong. But how do we prepare a place like, like, what does that look like to do ministry with people? And I will just say straight up for many churches who have been in our modern church setting for so long, it can feel disruptive. It can feel less quality. You know, we have such a show edge of like worship sometimes in some churches, so it can feel distracting. So what does it look like? And how is that different?

Rebecca Wall: 11:13

Oh, wow, that's a great question. I I often say I feel like I know Scripture says, you know, we are called to be His disciples, to be little Christ and to be his kingdom come here on Earth. And so I tell people all the time, church, I feel like is where we should practice heaven, and I don't believe Heaven is a place we're going to go and be quiet and be entertained. I believe we're going to be active participants. I think it'll be a little rowdy. I think people will move. I think it's going to be beautiful, and so I would hope our church is long to look more and more like heaven, and that would be every tongue, tribe and nation and ability I'll throw in there too. Um, but I just think, I think it's releasing some of the control. I think it's releasing some of our preferences and allowing and finding beauty in the different ways people worship and engage with the Holy Spirit and participate in church. I think if you have ever been a part of a space where you've worshiped alongside of people of all abilities, it only spurs you to love, to love and know and see the vastness of God's creation, and then think even more highly of the God we get to worship. And so I just encourage churches. I'm like, if you haven't felt that, like that longing should be present, and it doesn't take a whole lot. This is why small churches I love is because it really is very easy to get to know somebody and to find out what's going to help make church be right for them, I think, and you kind of referred to this a second ago, just with language. I think we get so often just kind of frozen and not wanting to engage because we're scared. We don't know all the answers, or we don't know everything to do, or we don't know what the proper headphones are to buy, or what seating is the best for somebody. But I tell people like there's freedom. You do not have to be an expert in everything. You just have to get to know one person. Yeah, and one person is you. If you get to know them and you you invite them in, then you will find out the best way to include them in all spaces, whether that's women's Bible study, whether that's children's ministry, whether that's serving on Saturdays, whether that's, you know, being a part of the band, you're just getting to know them like you would just get to know me and encourage me to be a fully, fully participating member of your body. And

Laurie Acker: 13:51

you know, another one of those things, I think, is, is even easier in a small church, because it's easier to adapt or change, or, you know, just make, I don't know, just make little shifts in smaller churches, because we don't have as much red tape, as much, you know, programming that's kind of happening around us. So I think sometimes it can even be easier in a small church?

Rebecca Wall: 14:13

Yeah, and we're trying to provide resources that allow churches of any size, but most churches are small, but to to provide resources that allow people to enter into that conversation, if, how do we give an extravagant and a warm welcome, knowing that a lot of these families that are showing up to us for the first time, maybe have tried five other churches, yeah, and we're not welcome to this way. So how can we meet them at the door in a way that, like I said earlier, ushers them in to the family of God, and then also providing resources of how what are some sensory supports we can have available that's not difficult. What are some easy logistical pieces, like an order of worship, or can we send out the songs ahead of time so that maybe people that that cannot read or young children can start to participate in worship because they've heard the songs all week? There's a really easy, easy things that we can equip churches to do and to rethink that aren't going to cost a lot, not going to require you to hire somebody, not going to require you to go back to school for a master's degree. It's really just, hey, let's, let's be thoughtful about the person in front of me and finding ways to best support them in their journey of growing in their faith. Yeah, and being a part. Of the community.

Laurie Acker: 15:32

I love that you talk about like the the people power behind a ministry like this, because you're not suggesting starting another ministry, starting another place where you're finding more volunteers or having to staff, because small churches are already, you know, pretty stretched out and stretched thin. You're talking about including, including people with disabilities in what you're already doing, which I love. So let's get super practical. And I didn't tell you this was coming, so hopefully this will go well in my head. I'm like so you you must walk into different churches. And you know, whenever I'm out of town or I visit a church, I get a feel as soon as I walk in, right? So you walk into most churches, you know, in the US, maybe in the world, and they're not really prepared. They don't really have a place prepared to welcome a family who has, maybe children or adults with disabilities. When you walk into that place that is prepared, like they've prepared a place, what does the Welcome Center or the narthex or the greeting area? What's different about it?

Rebecca Wall: 16:33

Oh, that's a great question. I am going to back up a little bit because I think this is important for all of your folks to hear most families with disabilities are not going to just show up at your church by chance on a Sunday, they going to have looked on your website to see if disabilities mentioned, to see if there are images of people with disabilities, and to see if your website communicates that they're wanted at your church. And so I would say that would be the first, first thing is that if that's communicated ahead of time, um, okay, I have

Laurie Acker: 17:05

to stop you there, because that's so true. Like I actually teach on this in the small church network, we've talked about that with hospitality, that your wealth, your front porch isn't your church anymore. Your front porch is like it is your website. So I love that you brought that up. So it starts with website, maybe social media, communication ahead of time. What would you look for on a website? Just a mention, or

Rebecca Wall: 17:30

it's a great we are in the process of doing a lot of research surrounding this, so I would love to follow up with you with some practical resources once we complete our research, I think definitely images of people with disabilities. Not just a lot of disability ministries are found on the children's page, but really, disability is across all ages and stages. So making sure that that's very visible, that people with disabilities are wanted and present a lot of families and individuals would be blessed by knowing what the space looks like and maybe who to who to contact before coming. I know a lot of churches that offer for families with disabilities, to come see the space beforehand, so that you're not just walking in and like already heightened anxiety for all, for the parents, for the kids, for the siblings, but to giving, giving kind of a preview of what a Sunday could look like, and that could be a video, or that could be an opportunity to come have a muffin the week prior, and and see the space and and be known already, um, but the warm, extravagant welcome. We have a whole specifically for kids ministry, but it works for anybody. But we have a whole welcoming guide, a whole connection form, a whole Accessibility Plan that walks churches through how you do this well? And I encourage a lot of folks to think about, you know, I think the first thing a lot of people would do if they meet a child with disabilities is ask all of the questions that you think you need to know, like you're at a doctor's appointment. And really, that's not really welcoming. I don't have to walk into church and give you my medical history and all of my preferences and all of my behaviors and so is so just saying, like, hey, let's just welcome and embrace and ask like, hey, what would make this Sunday great for your child? Is there anything you want to share that I could make this Sunday great for your child, and we'll go from there, you know, and we can follow up, follow up later, with a conversation that's a little bit more intentional to make sure the space is accessible. But I think it's just treating treating them like a child of God, that they are in an image bearer, and knowing their necessary part of your church that you've been lacking prior to that moment, and what would that look like? It will look like walking into Disneyland.

Laurie Acker: 20:05

So you have tons of resources, I know, on your website, with your organization, I want to ask you some more questions about the worship center and get some tips as well. But since you kind of already brought of already brought that up, how do people find you? Get some help from you. What does with ministries really look like if a church was going to connect with you? Yeah. So

Rebecca Wall: 20:25

we have the easiest way to do it is on our website. We have something called Access. And it's a level. It's our entry level for churches that are just starting this process or wanting to better their process. And it's a monthly subscription right now. It's $15 a month. I anticipate that will change at some point, so get in now, but for $15 a month, you get a library of our best resources, resources on language, theology, posture, our attitudes, our actions, etiquette, how frequently asked questions, how you approach this, some of the tools I've already mentioned, like the communication guide, the discipleship plan, just some of the resources that a church, for the very first time would come in and be equipped by to take that first step with that you get those resources, and then you get an opportunity to be in the community of our with access members, and that's monthly training and then monthly coaching. So we'll have opportunities for anybody that is subscribed to hop on a call with a team member here. And if you have very specific questions, we're happy to answer those. If you want training on a specific topic, we'll provide that. But it's a very entry level where I know you can't pay for us to just come consult. Y'all are small churches. I know that to come spend a week with you and solve all your problems would be very costly, but this is a very easy way for you to enter into the conversation, be equipped and have ongoing conversations with us that are intentional to leading you toward becoming more accessible awesome.

Laurie Acker: 22:09

And we'll make sure to put the link in the show notes everybody listening, so you'll be able to find it, but it's with ministries.org so with ministries.org and I know you and Victoria pop into our conferences, and often, you know, give us some resources for the expo booth or the VIP. So we, I just consider it an honor to partner with you all, because what you're doing is not trying to think of the word, but it's not like. It doesn't feel like para church. To me. It feels like involved in our church. You know what I mean? Like, like being part of the church. It's not separate. It's it's making our churches, like you said, like more like heaven. So can you give us some practical, easy tips? You mentioned, there's intentionality involved, but it's not hard. Doesn't cost a lot of money. What types of things can be provided, set out equipped people within your church for worship, Sunday school, even like adult small groups, like, where, what? Where could we start with this week? If we're like, hey, we want to, we want to just start with something. What is one little thing we could do to start preparing a place?

Rebecca Wall: 23:17

Oh, a great question. I think I could go so many directions with this, going

Laurie Acker: 23:23

all of that, going all directions.

Rebecca Wall: 23:28

The very, the very first thing I would say is it starts with your leadership of your church. And so I would hope that the leadership of your church wants to have a church full of people of all abilities and to worship that way. And so assuming that is the case, I would hope that maybe from from the front, it could be talked about just a Hey congregation, like we are not going we say around here all the time, like it's a no shush zone, like we're not going to tell people to be quiet, and we're not going to shush or or usher people out if, if they're worshiping in A different way than you are. But just, I'd say, setting a tone as a congregation of like, Hey, we are, you know, like your house analogy, the front porch. We're in the family room, and we're going to be a family in our church body, and we're going to treat one another like equals and like brothers and sisters. And so no one, no one's value, is placed anywhere else other than their child of God. So I would say, first thing you could do would be for this podcast, yeah, would be a family meeting and all of that. I would say, for children, we have some great resources. Visual schedules are not hard. There are lots of lots of people that provide some really neat, free things and visual schedules actually help all children and all people we love to know what's coming and what's expected and how much longer we're expected to sit or participate in a certain

Laurie Acker: 25:07

activity. So for a visual schedule, I just know some people do not know what this is. Holly Sharp has talked at our conferences and shared these before a lot. Yes, when she's talked, but this would be like, in a Sunday school room on the wall there would be a picture of a snack, and then a table, and then, you know, just something that would almost like trigger the order of things. Would you do a visual schedule also for worship, like adult worship, or no? Yeah.

Rebecca Wall: 25:31

I would I think visual icons are helpful on everything think about our world and how it's created. Logos are helped us to identify what, what, what is, what. And so if there is somebody in your worship service that might not be able to read that icon, could be life changing for them to be able to participate. Um, so we believe in icons everywhere, um, but definitely figuring out it maybe just like a schedule, just a mirror for all children to be able to see like, this is what's expected, and this is what's coming. Um, sensory fidget toys are great for kids and for me, for adults, um, to have options out in worship and in all aspects of ministry, to have something that would help meet sensory needs. Headphones are also a great thing to have available for folks. Um, I'm trying to think for kids ministry, we have a page. It's called like a my day at church, and it has ways for children to draw or to circle if they do not write or to write kind of what their day at church looks like, and to be able to communicate that and participate. But we tell people all the time, send things home with parents so that they can reinforce what's being learned at church, especially kids with disabilities. A lot of parents you know, might not ever be able to have a conversation with their child that's not speaking about what they learned at church on the way home from church. So giving, giving something to take home is really helpful to equip parents. There's lots of little ways we've we've got it all. We've got it all for you, to help you. I think I was meeting with the Church recently, and had done an evaluation with them, and kind of talked through what I witnessed and and they came back and just said, we've really spent the last few weeks grieving, because none of this is really hard, yeah, and all of this is very simple, and most of it is free. And we could have been doing this for decades, and we we missed it, and we haven't been, and we've been grieving that reality, and now we're ready to make steps toward change. And so I just want to encourage churches, small, big budgets, no budgets, a lot of a lot of being thoughtful is free, and a lot of feeling wanted is free, and a lot of being known is free, and it just takes intentionality and really desire from the body. So can

Laurie Acker: 28:06

you imagine, like there's so much conversation these days about outreach, how can we do better outreach? What outreach event, you know, all these kind of things. And I think, why are we reaching out in the same way we've always reached out, like, here we're saying that one in four people have some sort of disability. Are we? Are we doing that type of outreach? Like, are we just doing the typical outreach that every church does? Can you imagine if we reached into to population groups that have been neglected or set aside or feeling like they've been othered. And I'd love to talk before we totally run out of time, here a little bit about sensory rooms. We can have a part B, because a lot of churches is kind of like a little bit of a trend. Oh, we're going to have a sensory room. We want a sensory room. And I'm not against sensory rooms. But the more I've talked with many people you know around this topic, is sometimes sensory rooms become another feeling of othering, like, Oh, if you have sensory issue, you go to that room instead of providing sensory items, you know, in, you know, in the regular classrooms or in worship services. How do you feel about sensory rooms? Is there a need? Is there a good purpose? Is it a both and either or?

Rebecca Wall: 29:18

What a hot What a hot topic. I know

Laurie Acker: 29:21

I told you 25 minutes and we're over and I just went there, I would say, I

Rebecca Wall: 29:29

my heart for anybody in the church is to have options. Yeah, a lot of people with disabilities are told the one option that they have at church, and that's the classroom down the hall, and apart from the rest of the body, if you cannot read, you need to go down the hallway. If you cannot sit still, you need to go down the hallway if if your behaviors look any different than the rest of us, you need it on the hallway, um, and that is the one option. So my heart is to provide options in every space of the church so that anybody can choose, wow, where they best worship. So I would say, always provide sensory options and be thoughtful about that in every space of your church, whether that's children, teens, adults, young adults, Sunday school, whatever that looks like, make those accommodations in that space. So there's choice to be present. If that individual chooses to to remove themself and go to a different space for a short amount of time. That's great. But if that room is is designated as the option to send people to, I would definitely ask you to pause and consider that. I don't think sensor rooms are are bad by any means. I think they can be a really helpful, successful tool for individuals, but that is the only thing you're doing to check off the list to have a place for people to go when they don't adhere to societal norms in church, that's where I would have a problem with it.

Laurie Acker: 31:00

One more thing that I'd love to talk about before we end you mentioned. It starts with the leadership of this church. Our podcast, by and large, is listen to our followers our audience is by and large volunteers in small churches. We do have ministry leaders, we do have some pastors, but they are not my 100% audience. I love equipping volunteers, because every church has one pastor and dozens, if not 50 or 100 volunteers. So we are, by and large talking to volunteers. How do they start the conversation or or, like, we talk about advocacy, right? Like, how do we advocate for this type of ministry with, not for or two, but with people with disabilities? What are some ways to kind of, kind of dip our toe in and start moving there? Because I think this is a big ship to turn. This is a big cultural change. For many churches where we have grown up, being told, You be quiet. You listen. Pastors do not like getting distracted, usually, unless they, you know, have family members or friends or they've had a lot of exposure to people who are, you know, feel disruptive in different ways, right? So a lot of pastors don't want to get interrupted. A lot of worship leaders do not want to get interrupted. A lot of volunteer Sunday school teachers. They're not trained like it's I think this is a bit of a cultural shift. So if you're saying, hey, let's welcome everyone of all abilities, knowing you said, it's going to be noisy, it's going to be a little disruptive, it's going to be chaotic, how do we start those discussions and kind of, I don't know, dip our toe into turning the waters like, where would you go with that? Yeah,

Rebecca Wall: 32:37

I have been that has been, what I've been doing this fall, is I've been meeting with pastors, and I've been listening to them and trying to really understand what they need from us to help them.

Laurie Acker: 32:51

I just got to stop you and say, I love you so much more the more you talk. Because if you all whoever's listening right now, if you just heard Rebecca say, this is what I've been doing. I've been meeting with pastors, and then she said, I've been listening to them. And I think as advocates, I think that's what we have to do too. I think we bring up a topic and we listen like I think that's so important. Okay, keep going. I totally interrupted you. Go.

Rebecca Wall: 33:12

I have not trademarked the lunch and listen name, but that's what I've been doing. I've invited pastors to lunch for the sake of me listening to them, and really have been it's encouraging, because a lot of what they need, we are providing and we are creating and building. So that feels really encouraging to us as an organization a lot love research, and we are all about research. There's not a resource we put out without research behind it. We partner with Baylor University that, and they do all of our research. And so having the statistics in front of them, which we can provide you with those goes a long way, because it makes them go, oh gosh, one in four, one in six, one in three, you know. And a statistic I haven't even said yet is one in three families leave the church based on how they were treated, you know, them or their family member was treated. And so for pastor to hear, whoa, one in three families are leaving the church. That's a problem. Yeah. So what can we do about that? Well, Pastor, we have all sorts of things to help our church become a place where, where all people belong. And so I would say research is really, really practical on our on our in our access level, we have a whole document about our beliefs, like our theology behind this, our posture as a church body, our language and our actions, the etiquette towards individuals with disabilities. And so those and a research at a Glance document, and those are the five resources I would take to a pastor and have them look over it, and you'll have a conversation and really listen to them, because it is something that a lot of pastors feel they're not equipped. And they will tell you, I'm not equipped to disciple somebody with an intellectual disability, and that's where we get to come in and say, well, let help us support let us support you. Yeah, and equip your volunteers, those listening, and equip, equip your congregation, so that it really is a family's family's vision. And we can, we can better reflect the fullness of the Body of Christ like it tells us. We don't want to lack anything in First Corinthians 12, and so we want every member of our body. Be present. Wow.

Laurie Acker: 35:34

Rebecca, thank you so much for being part of this, for taking the time to be on the podcast. We are excited about what you're doing. I just love who you are as a person. It's so fun to meet people who are in, I don't know, passion areas where you can tell, like your eyes just light up like as I talk and as I ask. Oh, I could totally talk about that, you know. And it's just so encouraging to be with people who are just, I don't just being a light in the world, in their area where they are. Is there any last words you want to shout out here before we wrap up today? Any last words of encouragement?

Rebecca Wall: 36:11

Oh, I would just encourage y'all to if you need to set a reminder on your phone, whatever it takes, sit in church on Sunday morning and look around you, and if you're not seeing the fullness of the kingdom of God reflected there, start praying at that moment for that shift to happen and reach out to us and to help support that. But I think small churches is where, where people are finding belonging the most, and so it's a place to be known and welcomed and valued, and you can contribute. And we, we don't want to just do this out of out of duty, like I said earlier, because we should as good Christian people, but out of utter delight that we get to do life with people of all abilities as we were all created equal in the image of God. And so that shifting of two, two and four to with and from duty to delight they are, they are significant. But I believe it reflects what Christ hoped for the church. Yeah, churches,

Laurie Acker: 37:16

so good. Hey. You all wherever you're listening from. Would you just do me a favor and share this episode with one other person? I was talking to somebody this week. They reached out and said how excited they were that we were doing this series on accessibility and inclusion. And I said, Yeah, me too. But the sad thing is, is it won't be the most popular podcast we've had this year. If I did anything on women's ministry, or, you know, anything like that, we'd have, like, all these people like listening and sharing and and I just want to say this is the series you should share, like, hands down. This is what we need more of, more of this conversation, more of a place where everyone really does belong. So please share this podcast episode with at least one other person. Start the conversation in your church. Check out with ministries.org. Again, we will drop the link in the show notes, and this is a way you can be a light. You know, so many people talk about, I wish I could make a difference, or I'm not really in a position for that. You are so in a position to have this conversation, to share this podcast, to be an advocate, to let's just, let's just go there, like, let's watch our churches change. It's totally possible, but it takes you and me, and if you are just a volunteer, you're exactly the person to do this. So until next week, please share this around and be a light you