151: How To Create A Safe Space For Neurodiverse People Of All Ages With Ruth A. Popkin | Accessibility & Inclusion Series Part 3

In this episode, learn why it’s important to understand the needs of neurodiverse adults and how creating a space where neurodiverse individuals are seen, heard, and celebrated strengthens your church body - from worshipers to volunteers. 

Pastor Ruth A. Popkin, a passionate advocate for neurodiversity and inclusion, joins us to discuss how small churches can better serve people of all ages in the neurodivergent community.

Listen in to hear:

• What neurodiversity includes and how common it is among adults
• How a homeschool co-op lit the fire for supporting those with neurodiversity in a local church
• Easy-to-implement ideas for a more supportive Sunday morning for neurodiverse adults and families

Connect with Ruth A. Popkin:
pastor@blcin.com

Join our free Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry


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Transcript

Laurie Acker: 0:01

Hey, this is Laurie Acker, welcome to the small church ministry podcast. Hey, welcome back to the small church ministry podcast, where we are just all things small churches here, I had somebody ask me over the last week, like, what is your vision? What's your long term vision? And we had a really great discussion. But I think one of the things that we're doing, that I'm really excited about is is we're we're helping to make some, or start make some cultural shift in churches and churches in general. We really believe our modern church culture has kind of pulled away from the just the simplicity of Jesus style ministry, of ministering to people with so much program emphasis, although we do believe programs are important, and so that's one of the reasons for this current series we're in on accessibility and inclusion and belonging. You know, just churches being a place for all people, which it really hasn't, hasn't been that traditional. In the past. We talk about how so many, some of our churches, don't have anybody with wheelchairs, or we don't have anyone with, you know, autism. And the reality is, is those people, people with challenges, with struggles, with uniquenesses, with differences, with with like amazingness, are all around us, but they're not always making into our churches, because our churches have not always been a great place that is welcoming or safe or inclusive or accessible, which is one of those words we've been talking about over the last couple weeks too. But today we are actually talking about neuro diversity, which is a hot button, trendy topic right now in our culture, not just in churches, but everywhere. And I have an awesome guest with us today. I would love to introduce you to pastor Ruth Popkin. She has been a contributing, valuable member of our small church community, in our Facebook group and at our conferences, and I'm so excited to for you all to get to hear from her today. So, Pastor Ruth, you want to tell everybody where you're from and maybe even how you found us

Ruth A. Popkin: 2:07

Sure. So I live up in Northwest Indiana. I call it the Eastern Chicago suburbs. I serve in a small town called Chesterton. We are right south of the Indiana Dunes National Park, I found the small church ministry Facebook group first, because I was looking for ways in which to help bring some revitalization to the congregation I serve. And when I joined, I found a community with a lot of like minded folks who are going through the challenges and the joys of serving in small church ministry, and who actually got what it was all about. Yeah,

Laurie Acker: 2:54

yeah. I say that a lot. I say like, we get it, you know, we get it because that's where where we are. And Ruth, Pastor, Ruth, I know you've served in a few different smaller congregations. What's what's your favorite thing about smaller churches? Like, like, Why do you think they're amazing? Because I know I do, but sometimes people kind of begrudge the size. What do you love about small church ministry?

Ruth A. Popkin: 3:15

One thing I love about small church ministry is I get to know everybody personally. I get to go to the graduation parties and the confirmation parties and the baby showers, and folks really let me in to their personal world. They get to know me on a personal level. They know my husband, they know my son. They love on them, and I get the same blessing in return from them.

Laurie Acker: 3:47

I love that we've had different people mentioned that before in larger churches, like there's almost a privilege if you have access to the pastor, and so I love that that's a joy in your heart, that you actually get to know the individuals in your congregation. So that's great. Okay, well, let's jump into neuro diversity. So people have different definitions of this. You know, different people really include different things in neuro diversity when they talk about it. How do you define neuro diversity? Or what is neuro diversity in your experience?

Ruth A. Popkin: 4:19

So neuro diversity, at its core, basically means a diversity or a variety of minds. And so neurodiverse actually is a term that includes everybody, because everybody's mind is a little bit different. Oftentimes when we talk neurodiversity, what we're actually talking is individuals who identify as neurodivergent, which is different from neurotypical. Neurotypical is what most of the population identifies as. They're the majority. They're considered the typical folks, those who are neuro. Divergent are folks whose brains are just wired a little bit differently. So that includes autistic folks, that includes folks with ADHD, so Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, that includes folks who are dyslexic and who have other learning disabilities. That includes folks with OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. One thing that I'm starting to see is that might even include folks who have dementia. And so the neurodivergent umbrella is really big, and it is one of the most interesting and eclectic group of people, and yet, by being in and under that umbrella, there is a common connection, knowing that the other people get it. So it's a lot like being in a small church. Folks just get it when you identify as neurodivergent.

Laurie Acker: 5:59

Okay, so how do you know so much about neuro divergence and neuro diversity and neuro typical?

Ruth A. Popkin: 6:08

So part of it is I'm neuro divergent myself. I have Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. ADHD folks didn't know it for years. I didn't know it for years. I didn't get diagnosed till I was 32 but when I got diagnosed, it was like, oh, that's why I do that. But I also know a lot about neurodiversity, because I've taken a lot of time to learn about it. It's one of my special interests, but my church that I serve at is working on becoming a neuro diverse, affirming congregation, and so we are actively learning more about the neuro divergent experience. We are learning the different things that we can do to make our building more sensory sensitive, and we are learning the different ways in which we can meet people where they are at because we truly believe that all of us are created in God's image, and therefore we are all worthy of God's love and acceptance.

Laurie Acker: 7:24

I love it. So ADHD is one of the typical things that many people talk about. You know, everybody has ADHD these days. You know, you hear a lot of people talking about that, a lot of memes, a lot of reels on the internet and all this kind of stuff. But when we think about ADHD, and I'm just going to take this one because I know this is really broad, but I just want to take this one example. When we think about ADHD, many people would say, what would we have to change in our churches? For people with ADHD, they're fine. They can sit through things. They can, you know, we've had people with ADHD in our churches forever. What would what should we be doing? And why would this not work for them? How would you respond to someone who kind of has that bent

Ruth A. Popkin: 8:06

well, so one thing is, there's probably a lot more folks with ADHD in your church than you realize. A lot of them are probably doing something we call masking. They're covering up where they're struggling, and you might not even know it because they've gotten so good at it in order to live in society. But one of the key components about ADHD is that hyperactivity, it can be both physical, so you know the stereotypical little boy who can't sit in his seat, but it can also be in the mind, and for a lot of women in particular, the hyperactivity comes in our brains. Our brains never shut off. And so personally, for me, one of the things that is so difficult for me is when churches include really long periods of silence, or when they include music that is repetitive over and over and over again, my brain starts going, Are we done yet? Or it is the You must sit in your seat. You cannot get up and move. You cannot wiggle. There is no ability to get that energy out of your body, so one of the things that a lot of churches could do is just to be mindful of what might be difficult about keeping a body or a mind still,

Laurie Acker: 9:38

yeah, I love it when you talked about masking, so I am not diagnosed, but 100% sure I'm ADHD, and found out in my 50s. But when you talk about masking, I hate sitting through anything longer than, like 20 minutes. I hate meetings that go long. I hate but I do it and I look like I'm really attentive, because I've learned. Do that, but my brain is just so done. And I've recently been I'm going through a training to be a volunteer docent. One thing I noticed as soon as we walked in for an eight hour training is he had Play Doh on the table. And I was like, and I can't even tell you how much just having the Play Doh in my hand, and I am a professional adult who is a high achiever, and I'd like to just say that to everyone. We're not talking about people who don't want to pay attention or or don't want to be part of anything, or, you know, have other better things on their mind. Like, it's just it literally is my brain, right? So when I have that play doh in my hand, it can, it totally helps me, like it, you know. And I also had permission to stand up and I'll listen better if I'm standing at the back of the room for a small point in time. And when I think about our typical church programs from children on up, you know, sit still all of that because of just our background in society, it's not as effective. And yeah, you can make me sit still, but if you want to, if you want me to learn and engage, I'm going to be moving a little bit. And I think sometimes we have to think about the impact we want to have, not just let's control everyone's behavior, right? So okay, now we just only talked about ADHD. I know neuro divergence and neuro diversity is a lot broader than that. Oftentimes in churches when we talk about ADHD and autism, anything on the spectrum, dyslexia, some of the things that you mentioned we're almost the conversations I've heard have almost entirely been focused on children's ministry, getting children to engage in Sunday school and even into youth group. But you are really working a lot with adult can you talk about what you've been doing? Maybe what the results have been, how people have responded, tell us everything.

Ruth A. Popkin: 11:53

So it actually all started, ironically, out of a children's program. Our church, in the last year and a half has really made it one of our missions to welcome the community into the building. We have this beautiful asset. Why not welcome the community in? And so one of the first groups we welcomed in was a neurodiverse homeschool Co Op, and so all of the families who participate have a member, whether adult or child, who is neurodivergent. And oftentimes, if you've got a neurodivergent child, you have a neurodivergent adult. And so with that group coming, they welcomed me in. They like, you're part of our tribe. I was like, awesome. My kid goes to a Lutheran School. He's not homeschooled. They said, That's okay. Come get to know us. And one of the things that I began to learn was all the ways in which a lot of these folks had actually been really hurt by organized religion. They had been told that they weren't welcome. They needed to be quiet. They needed to get themselves under control. And so in hearing that hurt, I said, Oh, no, we're not going to be a church that does that to somebody else, because that's not what Jesus preached. He didn't preach. Come to church. Come to me only if you can sit still. And so I began learning everything I could. And what it morphed into is the co op started a special needs parents support group. I know special needs is a term that's a little bit charged, but this is what the group who are have special needs kids has decided to go with. And it's also turned into not just talking about our kids, it is talking about ourselves and our own struggles living in society that is not built for us. And part of that then became we started offering sensory supports during our worship service. So we have a table in the back of our worship space that has all sorts of sensory supports in it, because a lot of neurodivergent folks have sensory sensitivities, meaning your senses go overloaded, and that can be a real sign of distress, a real distressing experience. And so we have things on there, like little fidgets. You might have seen puppets are really, really big right now, almost everybody's going to pop it, but there's puppets. There are fidget spinners. There are. They're called Monkey tubes, as far as I know, but they're little mesh tubes, almost like the old Chinese finger traps that have marbles, and you can push the marble back and forth. We have a slinky back there. We also have no. Reducing headphones. I

Laurie Acker: 15:02

wondered about that when you said sensory support, because a lot of times it's overloaded, it's too much, too bright, noisy, too loud.

Ruth A. Popkin: 15:13

Yep. So we have both the noise reducing headphones, mainly for kids, but there are a pair of adult ones back there, but a lot of adults don't want to wear them because they don't want to be singled out. So we actually have a basket of individually packaged foam earplugs so you can grab they're not reused. They are yours to take and keep, and you can just stick them in. You'll still be able to hear but it's not as noticeable. And so in doing that, we're respecting folks ability to self reveal whether they're neurodivergent or sensory sensitive themselves. We also have back there something called Doodle notes. If folks sit in a meeting with me, they will see that my notes are covered in doodles, because that's one of the ways I get my my energy out. Well, we've provided notes that allow folks to take sermon notes, to take notes on their service, if they've got a question that comes up, and they can do it by doodling, writing, coloring. Every set comes with the paper, it comes with a clipboard, it comes with a set of colored pencils and pens, and they can then use that however best works for them. Other things though, that we've added, we've always had screens in the front of our church, and the one of the beautiful things about how the building was built, because it was only built about 25 years ago, is they actually put in rear projection screens so we don't have anything hanging down in front of them. Nothing to distract and so our service, every part of our service, music, prayers, graphics, it's all up on the screens, and we do it in aerial font, because for folks who are dyslexic, is that fonts that have serifs. So think Roman, think Garamond, think

Laurie Acker: 17:20

we have little hanging pieces, the ones that just aren't, the ones that are a little bit fancy or have little tiny like edges on them,

Ruth A. Popkin: 17:28

yeah, they can be so difficult to read for folks who are dyslexic, and so I

Laurie Acker: 17:34

did not know that. Thank you. Like, that's

Ruth A. Popkin: 17:37

Yep. So we do all of our stuff in what they call sans serif font to make it as easy to read as possible. We also I try, not always successful, but I try to include as many graphics as I can in my sermon PowerPoints, because I want to give something for folks to put their attention in, something that's not just using their ears. A lot of folks who are neurodivergent, they also have something called auditory processing disorder, which means they don't always pick up on everything through their hearing. So another way we've really become neurodivergent affirming is our announcements. All have graphics with them, bright, colorful graphics, and we use those graphics, not only in our Sunday morning service. We have a smart TV in our lobby that runs all of those graphics. We use them in our social media. And so it creates a way to put the connection between the image and the information so and then also we include still large print, printed bulletins for those who might have trouble seeing The screen, but also something tactile to hold and so all of those have been added in. And then we took the cry room, you know, a lot of churches have a cry room with a one way window in it, and changed that into a sensory room. And it's a sensory room not just for kids. It's a sensory room for anybody who needs it, because sensory sensitive Kim kids become sensory sensitive adults. So in there we we put in lamps rather than fluorescent lighting, because for a lot of folks who are neurodivergent, they can actually hear the buzzing of the fluorescence, and it's really dysregulating for them. So we have a couple of porch lamps in there. We have another bucket of fidgets. We have a little sound machine. We have. Some tap lights. We have four or five different types of chairs. We've got some spinny chairs, a rocking chair, chairs with arms, chairs that are hard, chairs that are soft. And then we have a couple of different types of flooring for folks who want to be on the floor. The service is actually piped in there, but we keep it nice and low so that folks don't feel overwhelmed. And the reason we chose to put it in the old cry room is because a lot of neurodivergent folks, when they come to a church and you know, they are not acting the way folks think you should act during church, they're told you can go down the hallway and you can watch a TV screen, or you can go down the hallway and listen, or you can go out into the foyer by yourself and try to get yourself under control. And Lee said, No, we want them actively part of the worshiping community. So by being in that room with the one way window, they are still actively a part of the worshiping community. They're just doing it in a space that allows them to be the best version of themselves.

Laurie Acker: 21:19

You have talked about so many things, I have a couple questions. I hope I even remember them. But one thing I want to ask. So when you were talking about, like, you know, the graphics and things like that, what went through my mind was the different learning styles. Like many of us have different learning styles. Some people learn better auditory, some people are visual, some people are kinesthetic. There's another one I can remember, but there's, there's a few different types. Is that correlated with neuro diversity as well? Like, is there a correlation there? Is that just kind of just another factor?

Ruth A. Popkin: 21:51

I think that's just another factor. I There are a segment of of neuro divergent folks who do better with visuals, they tend to think in pictures. That's one of the most recent things that has come out. I know myself. I'm somebody who thinks in a picture. You tell me to picture an apple, I'm going to picture an apple. I'm not going to the word. And so I am one of those people who learns better through a graphic, and the more colorful, the more it catches my attention, the better, because I'm going to remember it. Yeah,

Laurie Acker: 22:29

so many factors. And when another thing, when you brought up, like the overload, sensory overload, it's very interesting, because I have some friends who are just really sensory sensitive. For me, lighting is just, it drives me crazy. Like, a couple years Walmart redid their lights, and it's huge bright, like, it's brighter than day. And anywhere I go, I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is Walmart lighting. And I've gone into churches going, it's Walmart lighting. And if you all could see me right now, I just put my hand on my head, like I just spoke, because that Walmart lighting, it just and I've been in churches like that, and it makes me not want to stay. It is just too much. And I think about all these little factors, like, for many people going to church, it's stressful. It's not a beautiful, wonderful, loving time. You know, maybe there's anxiety, maybe there's social anxiety, maybe it's too much noise. I just saw on Facebook, somebody was asking, is there anyone in this area that has like, not like, that's a they were asking on Facebook, a contemporary worship church that isn't so loud because the volume of the music that they were seeing in the worship they they can't stand it. And I thought, Oh my gosh. How many obstacles do we have for people to love a loving community, you know. And I know we can't hit them all, but I love what you said early on, you know, Pastor Ruth, you said, we're committed to learning about it. We're gonna learn about it. Our church is learning about it, and I think that's a beautiful place to start. Is just being sensitive and learning about it. If you're listening right now, and you're like, wow, we never thought about these things. You know, maybe this is a podcast to share with someone in your church and say, Hey, what could we think about? We don't have to do it all, but what could we think about? What could we start learning about? Pastor Ruth, for you, did you do all this at once? Or was it a trickle down? Or where did you start, and how did this develop

Ruth A. Popkin: 24:21

so it we did not do it all at once. Oh, if there's anything I've learned in small church ministry, it's do things a little bit at a time. Get folks used to it. Get folks comfortable with it. Get them understanding why. Because most folks, they if they know why they're going to get all on board, so we did it a little at a time, but I think another big reason that we were able to do as much as we have is because I chose of my own revition to reveal that I am neurodiver. Divergent and to show that neurodivergent does not necessarily mean intellectually disabled and it also doesn't mean savant, I am a normal human being. I'm a high achiever like you, Laurie, but I'm neither of those ends of the groupings. And so by being open about who I was, what my own challenges are, but also about what is really something I'm good at, folks got used to the idea, oh, this could be the person sitting next to me, and I'd never even know it. And so a little bit at a time, and taking the time to do the education with it. So if

Laurie Acker: 25:51

somebody is listening right now, Ruth, and they're like, they've not done anything with this, you know, maybe it's pastor, maybe it's, you know, a volunteer in women's ministry, a Sunday school teacher. Where would you say, Hey, start here.

Ruth A. Popkin: 26:37

I'm going to be honest. Start with the adults. I know that's really contrary to a lot of the information that's out there, but if adults are comfortable, they're going to tell their friends, they're going to tell their family, they're gonna especially if they've got friends with kids, if an adult can say, Yeah, this is a safe place to be. A family with neuro divergent kids is going to take that information and be much more comfortable with it. A lot of places will say they're sensory sensitive, or they have a sensory room, but sometimes they're not, or the sensory room is a small closet in the corner of the space that folks are just kind of relegated off to. And so starting with adults, an easy way to start again those earplugs, or, as you mentioned, with the contemporary service, think about how loud it is. There are apps on your phone that you can see how loud the decibels are in your worship space. Run a test for a couple of weeks and see where it is, and then make adjustments as you see fit. I know that you were talking about someone looking for a contemporary worship service that wasn't so loud. That's actually one of the things that we are working on. I am part of a Lutheran church, and Lutherans are known for being super traditional. We're actually working on creating a contemporary service that is sensory sensitive. Our music is both on a piano and on an acoustic guitar. We are not an electrified contemporary service. And so we also don't have a huge worship band right now. We've got about one or two people who help. We're growing, but our goal is never to be the same as those big churches with those huge worship bands. So we call our worship band unplugged, and just hearing folks say, Oh, this is a place where I can still come and worship and hear music that fills me up, but not spend it with my hands covering my ears, is a huge another super easy way To start with this is a lot of neurodivergent folks don't like to be touched, a huge sensory overload. I have just even revealed to my own partners I don't like being hugged. There are very few people I let hug me. And every everyone wants to hug the pasture. And so I've started saying, You know what, I'm not comfortable that I will shake your hand, I will smile, but I really don't like to be touched. So think about all the times in which, during the times folks are in your service, in your building, that folks are assuming that you want to be touched. So maybe it's the passing of the piece. Maybe it is after service, and everyone just automatically comes up with their arms open for a hug. What are you supposed to do during that moment? Oh, yay. And we haven't done this yet. It's on my my bucket list of things to do, but getting those like plastic rubber bracelets and having them in red, yellow and green, and finding a way to share with folks, if you are a okay with with hugging and touching, put on a green one if it's. In circumstances. Put on a yellow one if you don't want to be touched at all, put on a red one, because then folks know where you are in your own comfort level. Yeah,

Laurie Acker: 30:42

no, I love this so much because it's really the base of it is relationships. It's caring, it's loving. We're not trying to over complicate anything. We're trying to actually get to know people and even be authentic with who we are. You know, as you mentioned, Pastor Ruth, when you actually came out, said, Hey, I'm a neurodivergent you know, think of how many times when we reveal I've been through that, I've had that happen. I am this, how much it opens other people up to be authentic and just just to be loved on. So, you know, as we talk about in the series about accessibility, inclusion, belonging, safe places. I think for me, one of the terms that keeps coming up with different people I talk to is othering, how we don't want to other people. And when you brought up the sensory room down the hallway, sometimes we think we're, you know, super sensory, you know, sensitive, because you can go to the sensory room, what that's really othering people, right? Like we want to be able to involve people and include them. You're not other, you're not different. We're all different. We're all unique. We're all together. I think is, is so important. So do you have any any final thoughts, anything on your heart that we haven't covered yet.

Ruth A. Popkin: 31:54

So actually talking about the othering as folks want to step into doing neuro diverse and neuro divergent affirming ministry, one of the key things make sure that as you're planning this, you actually talk to folks who are in the neuro divergent community, because we often like to do ministry for folks. We don't like to do ministry with folks, and part of that is we don't like to give up the control. But you know what, when you're doing ministry for folks, rather than with them, you are othering them. I would say, the other thing that I would I would bring up with neuro diverse and neuro divergent ministry is spend some time learning there are more folks out there than you would imagine, and take the time to step into their shoes for even 1520 minutes try to listen and see and experience what they might be experiencing, because it really opens your eyes to a wider breath of what's going on.

Laurie Acker: 33:16

Yeah, yeah. You know, so many churches talk about outreach these days and reaching their communities and trying all these things, and sometimes I just wonder if our churches were just a war welcoming place, you know, where people knew it was safe, knew they'd be loved on. You know, no matter where we're coming in from, I just wonder that that wouldn't be part of changing. You know, who's walking in, who feels welcome in our churches? So, yeah, Well, Pastor Ruth, if anybody wants to learn a little more about what you're doing or ask you any questions, how could they get in touch with you

Ruth A. Popkin: 33:48

so they can get in touch with me by emailing me is pastor at B, L, C, I n.com, you can also get a hold of me through the small church ministry, Facebook group. I am more than active in there, as Laurie has said. But also, if you want to learn more just about neuro divergence and neuro divergent ministry, there are a lot of really great YouTubers out there, and that's where I did a lot of my learning. So I would invite you to to search for them on YouTube and learn as much as you can, because when you've done that, you've taken the first step into welcoming a community that often doesn't feel welcome.

Laurie Acker: 34:42

I love it. Do you have any particular YouTube channels? Is that what they're called that you would say, Hey, this is a really great place to start.

Ruth A. Popkin: 34:49

I really love a channel called Chris and Debbie. They are a neuro divergent marriage, so the wife is neuro typical, and my husband is diagnosed autistic and with ADHD. And they provide a lot of really great material for ADHD in particular, I love the channel how to ADHD and so those are two of the ones that are very much based in research and based in personal experience. Awesome,

Laurie Acker: 35:27

awesome. Well, thank you, Pastor Ruth, so much for being with us. Us today on the podcast. I knew when we started the series that I wanted, I just wanted everybody to hear our conversation, because you've really been a contributing, valuable member of our community. And you all, if you are not yet in the free Facebook community that we have creative solutions for small churches, please get in there the links in the show notes. We will make sure to have pastor Ruth's email in the show notes, but keep reaching out. You know, I really think this is one of those areas where we can do better, and one small change can really make a big difference, just in being more welcoming and just letting people know that, you know church loves you, you know we're part of the church, and let's, let's do it together. So thank you, Ruth, for being with us. All right, everybody until next week. Be a light. You.