150: Got Room For Wheels? Let’s Talk Mobility With Joanne Petersen | Accessibility & Inclusion Series Part 2

As we desire to create faith communities where all are welcome, we’ve dedicated a series of conversations to accessibility and inclusion in small churches.

Churches of all sizes are missing entire segments of people not far from our doorsteps, and we can do better.

Today’s topic dives into creating spaces and communities that are truly accessible for those with mobility challenges.

After an accident in her 20s, today’s guest found her life significantly altered as she adjusted to being a paraplegic. Joanne Petersen speaks to us today, raising awareness about accessibility issues in our churches and simple fixes to do better.

In addition to talking about wheelchair-friendly spaces, from restrooms to entryways, Joanne shares her heart on what it means to be truly considered by others who see her not as a person with a disability but as a friend. 


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Transcript

Laurie Acker: 0:01

Hey, this is Laurie Acker, welcome to the small church ministry podcast. Hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of the small church ministry podcast, where we talk about everything small church. Today we are kicking off a series about inclusivity. So for the next couple weeks, we're going to be talking about this big word inclusivity, which is quite a buzz word right now in our culture. And I just wanted to find a little bit about what this word means to me, because it's not really that big. It should be kind of a given that we are a welcoming place for all, and I think being inclusive is so Jesus, like in so many ways, and to me, feeling welcome at a church is really why I fell in love with the church. I don't know if you've heard or read my story before, but I really fell in love with the church when I was in junior high because I didn't fit anywhere else, like I didn't fit anywhere else. And I remember walking into this church with my family, and I particularly remember a certain gentleman. His name was Russ Gifford. I don't even remember the name of the church at the time, but he was a middle aged gentleman, and he like, talked to me. He looked me in the eyes, and he smiled. And every time I went to that church, I felt welcome. And it was really the only place in my life. When I was in junior high, I felt like I fit, which was so weird that it was at this church with this middle aged guy in fellowship hall before we even before I even started going to that youth group. And so when I talk about inclusivity, when we talk about inclusivity at small church ministry, we're just talking about welcoming everyone like that. This is a place that's welcome to all. So in this particular series coming up, we're going to talk about inclusivity and accessibility, having to do with mobility issues, autism, adults with differing abilities, chronic pain, cultural differences, even mood disorders, anxiety, depression. How do we include and make our churches a welcoming place for people with visual or hearing impairments, even dietary restrictions, which is another hot button that I know some of you might want to talk not want to talk about, but if you don't think these issues apply to your church, I just want you just to take a big breath, and I really beg you to reconsider it, because here's the thing, if you think you don't have people in your church with mobility issues, or you don't have children with who are autistic, or you don't have people of different economic statuses, or, you know, anxiety disorders, I Just want you to consider why that might be, because they are all around us, every single church, every single community. We are surrounded by people with all sorts of differing abilities and struggles, and oftentimes they're not in our church because we don't have a place for them, because we haven't considered it. We haven't opened up in a way that we're even thinking, oh my goodness, what could this issue be? Or why does this person or this culture not feel welcome here? So that's what we're talking about. Or the next couple weeks, I am super thrilled to introduce you to some new friends, new topics, new conversations, and as we go into even today's episode, the story in my head right now is just Jesus and Zacchaeus. Jesus is being crowded by all sorts of people, and he looks up in the tree and says, Hey, Zacchaeus. Jesus is the only one who noticed Zacchaeus. He couldn't even get in the crowd. He was up in a tree. And Jesus said, not just hey, come down and join us and get in the crowd. He said, I'm coming to your house. I want to know you. I want to see where you live. I want to be in relationship with you. Zacchaeus, and so that is the story overarching my mind as we start this series talking about inclusivity. So today, I want to introduce you to my friend Joanne Peterson, Joanne is a paraplegic who loves Jesus and loves small churches, and I got to meet her when we were involved in a soul shepherding Institute. Joanne, how long ago was that that we met up? Was it two years ago? A year and a half? I don't even know.

Joanne Petersen: 4:17

Don't remember last year. I don't remember. Yeah, I

Laurie Acker: 4:21

think it might have been a year and a half ago. I remember it when we were in Colorado and you just had the sweetest presence about you and and I felt welcomed by you. I've never really shared that, but like, you know when you meet certain people, like I felt very welcomed and loved by you even before we had conversations. But Joanne recently put a post up on Facebook that just cut to my heart, and it was titled the inaccessibility cycle. And in the middle there was like this image of the person in the wheelchair, image that we will see on signs and in storefronts and stuff. And it said disabled people. And there was a cycle. Around it that basically, in my head, said we don't see them because we don't prepare our spaces for them, so they don't come in, so we don't see them. And it's like there is this cycle around it. But Joanne, this is kind of recent for you to be raising some awareness on social media about accessibility issues. Can you just talk a little bit about your story and maybe why you're starting to speak out after maybe years of not speaking so much publicly.

Joanne Petersen: 5:27

Yes, Laurie, thank you. Thank you for asking me. Thank you for inviting me to your program. I My name is Joanne Peterson. When I was 24 years old, my husband and I. In 1983 my husband and I were in a car accident, and up until I was 24 years old, I was as able bodied as anybody. I'd had two children. I was living my life. My husband was a college student, and within a split second on a snowy road, someone hit our car and broke my back in two and severed my spinal cord. And from that moment on, in 1983 my life was different, and to go from being an able bodied person at such a young age and having to find a new identity as a person in a wheelchair, wow, was very challenging. And I remember I was in the hospital for three months, and I remember laying in the hospital bed and just crying out to God and saying, I don't even know anyone in a wheelchair, yeah. How am I supposed to do this? I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to be a disabled person. And so God has taught me all these years what it's like. He's been with me. His presence has blessed me, and he's he. He is everything to me, and I've lived a life full of blessings and accomplishments and adventures, but at the same time also full of difficulties. Yeah, I through the years, and I'm a paraplegic, so I have use of my arms, but not my legs, so I'm a full time wheelchair user. And over the years, because I was young and strong, I could independently do almost everything and the things that I couldn't independently do. Then I had my husband to help me, or a friend. But even through those years, there's been there have been situations where, I mean, it's very I can't really explain Laurie what it's like to be the same on the inside, but look so different to everybody else on the outside, and to be treated so differently. So because I am an extrovert and I'm social, I learned very early on that it was my job to put people at ease around me so they'd be comfortable around me. But as I've gotten older, and I always assumed I wanted to I didn't want to stand out as a handicapped person. I didn't want fuss to be made around me. I wanted to be just like everyone else, so asking for help or pointing out difficult things, I had a lot of pride and a lot of shame around that, over standing out, and I didn't want to do it. But as as I've been aging these 40 years in a wheelchair and realizing that if I don't say something, then the same problems, the same challenges that I've encountered over the years, are going to be there for the person behind me. So I'm not doing anyone any favors by not pointing out what needs, what could change, especially within the body of Christ. So that's why I finally started speaking out, and as I told you on the phone, when you asked me to be your guest, I said, I don't. This is still true. I, I, I have a very small frame of reference for my disability challenges, and that's wheelchair use as a paraplegic and as a woman, there are so many things I don't understand about the life of a quadriplegic or a person with vision impairment, so I can't really speak to those. All I can talk about is what it's like for someone in my situation. In my life and what I've encountered and how it could change in our churches and in our society. So that's why I've started speaking up now, because if I don't, then I'm leaving it for the next young woman at 24 years old, who says, How do I do this? Yeah,

Laurie Acker: 10:17

and, and who wouldn't speak for herself, because, like you're saying, so many times when we have needs, even people with chronic illness, which we're going to talk about, people with dietary issues, which we're going to talk about so often, we don't want to bring attention to ourselves. We don't want to be the needy one. We don't want to be the one that people are focused on. We don't want to take the attention off of other people. And yet, as the body of Christ like this is seeing each other and walking alongside and so I know you said I loved it actually, when you said, I am not the expert. Well, you're more of an expert than I am. And so we want to hear from you. We want to hear what your experience was like. And you know, even though you're saying, you can speak, you know, to women who are paraplegics, but at the same time, you can't even speak to a child growing up as a paraplegic, right? Because you were able bodied until you were 24 and I think that is so awesome to say, because we can't put anybody in a box. What works for you might not work for this church or this culture or this person, but what we can do is we can open the conversation and start being sensitive, and start being a little bolder, even to come alongside people and ask, what's different? What do you need? How could we help? What are we doing that's maybe hurting inadvertently, even or unintentionally? So I'm just excited to have this conversation with you. Okay, so we're gonna start with this question, and I've got a few, but if you want to go in different directions, Joanne, feel free also, what would you say to a church who says we don't really have anybody here with accessibility issues, so we don't need a ramp.

Joanne Petersen: 12:34

What would I say? I have heard this a lot through the years. I've heard this a lot too through the years. There it's it's just circular reasoning. You don't have anyone there with accessible issues, because you don't have a way to have them enter the facility and say that they are welcome. Yeah, it's it's not a welcome facility, and people living in a wheelchair, not being able to walk is exhausting, and the issues that come along with that, not just accessibility issues, but the pain and the bathroom issues and the social issues are all already so big that when you look at a building and you see that there's no way for you to enter, it feels like the door has just been slammed in your face, so you won't have anyone there with accessibility issues because they can't get in. Yeah, yeah. It's not welcome.

Laurie Acker: 13:38

Do you ever do a drive by of a place like when you're invited somewhere? Do you ever do a drive by and go? Is this even a place I can go?

Joanne Petersen: 13:45

Always Yeah, every time

Laurie Acker: 13:49

and everything that people don't think about,

Joanne Petersen: 13:55

oh yeah, like, how, how can I get in? Can I use a bathroom? Is there a place for me to sit comfortably? Just all those little things and having to navigate mentally and internally, all of those things. They're it's stressors, and if you're an introvert, or you're shy, or you're you're just you feel like you're a socially awkward I don't mean you, but that your your disability makes you appear to be socially awkward, then then you have even less tendency to put yourself in that position of encountering those things. Yeah,

Laurie Acker: 14:43

I imagine a lot of people with differing abilities or different stressors in their life even stop trying at a point like I imagine they have tried to go so many times to different places and found so many obstacles that they kind of stopped trying after a time. Was that, is that probably true?

Joanne Petersen: 15:00

Oh, it's absolutely true, and it's true in my life. As as the years go on and it gets harder to live in a wheelchair, it's just it's more tiring for me. I'm 65 now, and it's very tiring. Yeah, people just, they, they don't go. It's not worth the effort anymore. Yeah, is that what you were asking? Asked? Yeah,

Laurie Acker: 15:26

exactly. No, that's exactly what I was asking. And I think, I think we can change this. Like, I love seeing your posts recently, Joanne, about, like, just different things about mobility issues that, like, it's over 10% of people, like, in the US have mobility issues. So it's not like they're not around your church, but I really would love to see this change in churches. Like, let's be a welcoming place for all. And can you speak to this at all? Is it? How easy, or how difficult is it if a church has never really been aware of this, or maybe somebody's listening, they're like, gosh, I never thought about that. Like, that's why so and so down the street, or that's why my neighbor probably doesn't come how easy or difficult is it for a smaller church, a smaller church community, to move toward being more accessible or welcoming to people in wheelchairs or with mobility issues.

Joanne Petersen: 16:20

Well, the first step would be recognition that it needs to be done, and hearts that say this needs to be done, even if it's for Mr. Smith, who can only come once every six months. Yeah, it's, it's still we need, we need to give the message and present ourselves as a place that wants that includes everybody. So that's the first step. The second step is, you know, Google is just a touch away. Amen, you can say, what do I need to do to make my church accessible? That that's all you need to do. If it's mobility, accessibility, which is what I address, then it's, it's easy enough to find, can I get through the entrance? Can this person use the bathroom adequately? Is, is there room? I've written down several little areas here, and you mentioned it in our previous conversation, just seating in the sanctuary, often, often, I have been in churches that have an area delegated for people with mobility issues, so it's kind of this own little block of area, and that's where you sit, and that's a lot of people, if you don't have a disability, would say, well, we're being welcoming, sort of I would say, I would say more you're being segregating. You're saying you can come but you stay here. This is for you. Everybody else gets to mill around and socialize and go over there and go over there, but you can't. This is where you you will stay, and it feels I don't like it. Laurie, personally at all.

Laurie Acker: 18:16

Well, I've heard that. I've heard that before with people who have some of those kind of restrictions, because one thing and and also, I also just want to say there's no shame on churches who are trying like we try and we learn better, and we do better as we learn more, right? Like, and so a lot of times we're restricted by our budgets, by, you know, where we can have an exit before building a ramp or things like that. So no shame if we bring up some of these things. But I think they're so important because, because the other thing on that is, like, when you have, when you do have, like, let's call it a wheelchair section, if that's okay to say, like, there's a wheelchair section, you're all of a sudden, taking that person even away from their family, like, I've thought about that before, like, how sad is that, you know? And yet we have real things, like, can we have some chairs that are movable? You know, if you do have someone in your congregation who has mobility issues, ask them where they want to sit. I mean, I know I don't like to sit under the air conditioning unit, like I'm freezing, right? And so even just opening those conversations of, does this work for you? But that is a that is something we could do better. So what else can we do better? What else have you seen churches do that? You're like, oh, we could do better.

Joanne Petersen: 19:29

There's a difference. They're both vitally important, but there's, there are a couple of large issues when it comes to life in the community of church. There's the physical, physical accessibility and and the social inclusivity of the church. They aren't necessarily the same thing. So in physical accessibility, I I've been, I've been to a lot of churches in my 65 years, and many of them wouldn't fit the definition of what I'm telling you would be the perfect church. But often, what makes the heart even if, if it's not possible to change the architectural barriers or the fixed pews in a church, because it's an old church, and that's where they are. If, if the heart of the people is to say, Oh, I this. I'm sorry. This is hard for you. You're an important part to be here. Is there any way we can make it easier? We can't it just the acknowledgement that that's a challenge, but we're glad you're here, and we'll do everything we can to make this easier for you, because you're a part of the congregation. You're not just someone who needs the right place to sit. You're part of the body of Christ, and so when that atmosphere and that spirit can be communicated, then that heart of welcome really can just transcend the barriers, because there will always be some barriers. But I'm not sure that that's a bad thing, because if, if there aren't barriers, and it doesn't give other people reasons to be curious and to reach out and to come alongside. So it's a working organ, organism. It doesn't mean a perfect environment, but it means a heart of welcome and curiosity and living out what Jesus has said. Okay, you just asked me something else, and I forget what that was.

Laurie Acker: 21:40

Well, I forgot to because I'm a bit ADHD, so we can just keep going, because I want to just just touch on one thing you just said was you mentioned the word curiosity, curious. It's, it's one of my favorite words these days, and not because it's a buzzword, but because it's true. You know, like, when we can be curious, we kind of open our minds up. And the reason I love it as part of this conversation is because we're not talking about, like, making it perfect, but opening up this conversation and doing better. And I love that you just spoke on, like, if we can't do better in certain areas, can we can we bridge that relational, you know, gap, can we say, hey, we care about you. And I would love for you to kind of speak to this. It's not a question I prepped you on, so I'll drag it out and make it a little longer so you have a moment to think. But I think sometimes, in today's day and age, we don't ask the questions because we are scared to offend or scared to overstep. So when you know there's just this awkwardness, if you did not grow up around or don't have a friend who has whatever issue we're talking about right now, and it could be anything, but in this case, you know, we're talking about a person in a wheelchair. Like, how do we get over those self things? And is there anything that you would mention, hey, this, this is kind of a rough thing to say, but you could say it this way, like, what's appropriate to ask? How do we start these conversations? If we're intimidated ourselves,

Joanne Petersen: 23:11

that's a good question, because it's it's an individual's own anxiety or uncertainty that prevents us from reaching out to someone else. So to bridge that your own be able to read yourself well enough to know that you have that and then give it to the Lord and say, will you help me with this? But I have always appreciated Laurie people who don't know me. Well, I know they're curious about me, but they don't open with so, why are you in a wheelchair, or what happened to you? Instead, they say, Well, where do you live, and how long have you been in this area, and tell me about your walk with Christ, and how many kids do you have? Just what you would ask anybody else. That's new, because just like I wouldn't sit down beside you, and the first thing I say to you is, Laurie, Why are your eyes that color? Right? It's like, well, it doesn't open doors to relationship. Of course, there's the curiosity, but it's through relationship that those those details will come out and be shared, and everybody's different. I'm an open book, if you have a heart to know me, I'm an open book, but I have friends in wheelchairs. They're very they're very private. It will take them a while, because our defenses are up a lot. Laurie, there's been negative experiences through the years too, and so the the defenses are up. But if I know you want to know me, because there's something about me that you're drawn to, then a friendship can develop and questions can be asked.

Laurie Acker: 24:58

Yeah, yeah, I love it. You know, we talk about that so much like, ministry is all relational. Like, if we are willing to build relationships, be curious about other people. You know, work to just love and serve people. It's it doesn't come through the programs, it comes through the relationships. So I love that you mentioned that I just love it so much. You know, you talked about something with me earlier in another conversation, and it has stuck with me. I'm hoping maybe you can explain it a little bit as well, so that we have some more understanding. But you talked about the fact that you have a. Constant hyper vigilance like that, that people don't understand that this is a constancy. Can you talk about that a little bit,

Joanne Petersen: 25:43

sure, and I haven't used other people with disabilities use this word, but I think we're all aware of it, and you, you just asked me if I'm invited someplace new. Do I drive by first to see if I can get in? That's part of it. It's that knowing that I need to know the environment before I can say yes to a social engagement, or a speaking engagement, or or a social outing, I have to know the environment first. If it's not a great environment for me, I have to know that there'd be somebody there who, who, who would be brave enough to to assist me if I needed assisting, and it's just the oddest thing. It's just the oddest thing. Laurie to every maybe this is my imaginary audience, but every time I've been somewhere new, I feel very noticed. I feel like I'm now, now that I'm getting older, though, I can kind of blend in a little bit more, but especially before, when I was younger and with my daughters and going out, I would always be noticed. And there were just days when I didn't want to be noticed. I just wanted to be another person in the grocery store, doing my thing, but always being on it. It gets really exhausting, and that's what I mean by hyper vigilance. And I have been approached by Unsafe people over the years, so I always have to be aware of kind of who's around me too, and their intentions toward me at the same time, not everybody is safe, unfortunately, but yeah, that's what I mean by hyper vigilance.

Laurie Acker: 27:38

Yeah, you know, when you're in a church community, kind of a setting, is there anything else you wish that people would understand about you, like when you're part of a church community?

Joanne Petersen: 27:48

Yeah, there, there's the physical barriers, which we've talked about a little bit, but there's also the relational, social inclusivity. It's one thing in a church making sure that somebody has a place to sit, or there's no steps at the front door there's a ramp. It's another thing to make them a part of your body with the gifts and the talents and what they have to bring and invite them to do that. So it's it's just including people relationally and understanding that even though, personally, okay, me, I can't walk, but I can still participate. I still have things that I can offer to you and I can receive from you, because we're not all the same in the body of Christ, in in terms of women, women functions within the church, there have been many times when I haven't been able to participate because something is set up in a place with barriers that I can't participate In and that I can't participate in, and nobody notices, and so I don't participate. But then I've lost out on that social aspect of church.

Laurie Acker: 29:19

And do you mean like when something's held at somebody's home, or like in a venue where you can't go, okay,

Joanne Petersen: 29:25

yes, yes, like a retreat center, for example, or Yeah, somebody's home. Someone just recently said to me at our church, it's just so much nicer to meet in people's homes. And I said, Yeah, but I can't tell me whose homes I can get into. It's it's typically my house that I can get into. So I do have a lot of groups here, but it's not always because I want to, it's because I want to participate, and that's how I can participate.

Laurie Acker: 29:57

And you know, that speaks so much to a question that comes up a lot, like in our groups and at our conferences, people say, Well, I just wish they would come more, you know, and and why don't they come? They just don't like it, or they're not committed, like about other things, not about accessibility. But you know, when people say that. I always say, Have you asked them? Why? Like, have you actually asked this person? Because we make a lot of assumptions, you know, like, like, they just don't want to be involved. And I think this speaks to that, like, can I ask you, like, we would love to see you there. What is that like for you? You know? And. Just having that conversation, like you talked about earlier, just with the relational side of things, we would ask other people, right? Like, Hey, why aren't you showing up? You know? Like, let's, let's get these conversations going in a way that we can work toward being more inclusive, more welcoming for everyone.

Joanne Petersen: 30:51

Yes, I agree. I agree. It takes it's back to the word curiosity, yeah, yeah, and the body of Christ, yeah. Body of Christ, yeah.

Laurie Acker: 31:01

I want to pull out a few things before we run out of time that you had in a social media post, you had, you had put down like, the nicest thing anyone can do, for me, is to think ahead of a situation and put themselves in my shoes. But you mentioned four specific things that I think every church should consider, if nothing else. These four things, is the accessibility in and out of the door, you know, and maybe not putting the wheelchair access on the backside through the alley right like front and center. Can Can we get in the door? The second one was, is there a place to sit where I won't stand out, like I'm not just set off to the side or, you know, put in this area? The third thing was about the restroom facilities, which, of course, should be accessible. And a lot of times we don't even know if they are. We think they are, and that's where we need to have some curiosity in asking people. And the fourth thing was about adequate parking for the van, you know, and this isn't just at the church. This is wherever your activities are happening, if you are doing it at home. These four questions, the access door, a place to sit that doesn't stand out, a bathroom facility and adequate parking. Is there anything else in that mix that you would add to that, as far as, like the basics, like, if we do nothing else, we need to do these things.

Joanne Petersen: 32:23

One thing I want to say, it merges the barrier, the barrier and the social aspect you mentioned, maybe not putting the ramp in the back door in the alley for people to come in. When that happens, and it happens a lot is when someone says, yes, you can get in. You can get in the back door and come in this way. But the main entry is where all the fellowship happens, and the vestibule and people are being greeted and Hello. How are you nice to see you? Then, yes, you have the physical barrier addressed, but then the social implication, implications are you're not you're not part of the living body, relationally. And so once again, you're kind of just left out and left to the side. So I wanted to go back that the other things these, these are, these are the basic needs. But what's in between the lines in all of those, of course, is, do you just have can you have friends? Can you have relationships? Can you have people that see beyond the disability and see the person and just enjoy that person is and laugh with and laugh with and have good conversations that don't involve the disability at all. They're just conversations as you're growing and together. Yeah,

Laurie Acker: 33:59

yeah. I love it. I love it so much. I'm really excited about these conversations that we're going to be having in this whole series, because, and I also want to just encourage everybody listening. Where are you going to take this conversation? Like, who can you share this conversation with? If you're one of those churches that says we don't have people with mobility issues, could you please open your eyes in the community? Because I will 100% tell you that the people with mobility issues, many of them, have already chosen not to participate in a church, because what they have seen, and they are watching on Zoom maybe, but missing out on all the relational connection. And I really do think we can do better. So who can you share this podcast episode with? Who can you talk with? Who can you start this conversation with? Who do you know, who has mobility issues that you could ask some of these same questions to or say, Hey, listen to this podcast. What do you think? What else can we consider so don't just listen to this like listen and do and at the very least start some conversations and open this up, because I really believe we can do better. And I think this is one of the reasons many churches, I don't know, our church culture, is even becoming a little bit more obsolete, because we've, we've kind of fallen into what we do is what we do and and not really looking on what we can do better. So let's do better. So Joanne, before you leave, because I know we're almost out of time, you mentioned a friend who has gone out of the way to consider you in in different ways. And when you mention her, your eyes like light up. You're like this friend, like what she has done and how she's considered me has just been. So beautiful. Can you tell us a little bit about her, or what she's done and what it's meant for you?

Joanne Petersen: 35:38

We've been friends for 30 plus years, and both she and her husband, she they, they've ramped their house for you, the architectural barriers. Yes, they ramp their house for me, they there's a good parking spot when I come over. She, she makes sure that the furniture is out of the way, that the table is the kind I like to sit at, because I can't some of the legs on tables make it hard for me. And she knows that if there's a social outing at all, we vacation together. We used to go to church together. She's always thinking, you can come, this is what we need to do. And she goes, or she'll, she'll see something, or she'll say, that doesn't work. Joanne won't be able to do that. You're going to have to do that a different way. So it's just, it's someone who cares for me as a friend, just a friend, and cares enough to say we're going to make life work for you too, because we want you with us, and it makes me feel safe and loved and valued to be with her.

Laurie Acker: 36:53

She thinks, she thinks ahead of time. For you,

Joanne Petersen: 36:57

she does. I don't have to be hyper vigilant when I'm with her.

Laurie Acker: 37:02

Wouldn't it be beautiful if our churches could offer that gift, that we could be those places that think ahead, that prepare ahead, you know, I think of like Jesus and just the whole image of heaven that he's gone ahead to prepare a place for us.

Joanne Petersen: 37:21

I know, would that not be so heart level? Yeah, yes.

Laurie Acker: 37:25

But if our churches, it small churches, could be a place that prepared ahead of time for the people who are usually on the outside, the people who usually walk in and are hyper vigilant, are already expecting it not to be a welcome place for whatever is their life. That's a little different. So Wow. Okay, I could talk to you for so much longer, but we'll have to go and let everybody get on their way wherever you all are listening from. I hope this conversation with Joanne Peterson has has honestly just kind of nudged your heart in some new ways. And look forward to some more conversations as we talk more about inclusivity, being a welcoming place, being churches that literally prepare ahead for people who most people do not, do not even consider, not out of, I think, a heart for it, but just out of, you know, ignorance, unknown. We don't know what to do. We don't know how to do it well, we're intimidated, we're nervous, we're scared, we're scared to do it wrong, but let's do better. So Joanne, thank you for being here to give us some insight. Thank

Joanne Petersen: 38:42

you. Thank you, Laurie, thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I'm

Laurie Acker: 38:48

excited. I'm excited to hear some feedback and and honestly, changes that churches make because this conversation was started here. So all right, wherever you're listening from you all, we'll talk to you again next week. Be a light you