133: Small Church Mindset Shifts, Strategies, & Support | A Story Of Renewal With Allison Marco

After years of small church setbacks and church trauma, Allison and her husband were on the verge of walking away from ministry. 

After finding our community, this pastoral couple made simple mindset shifts that not only changed their personal trajectory but also greatly influenced their church culture to move from unhealthy to thriving. 

From feeling burned out to feeling totally blessed, listen in as Allison shares some easy-to-make ministry changes and self-care practices that made the difference.

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Transcript

Laurie Acker: 0:01

Hey, this is Laurie Acker. Welcome to the small church ministry podcast. Hey, welcome back to another episode of this small church ministry podcast. Small church ministry is the home of the small church network, this small church Academy, small church summits, quarterly conferences, we got the small church website, we got so many things going on. And this podcast has been a real blessing to so many people. And one of the reasons is because we get to have guests on and so you get to hear from people all over the world. This person today is coming in from the exotic land of Wisconsin. And she will be talking to us about some really cool, awesome things. But I met Alison, we just kind of went over like what how long ago was it? It was about three years ago, when she found us through one of our conferences. But Alison, do you want to just really quickly, Allison Marco, would you introduce yourself to everybody? Like how what would you tell them if you're just meeting somebody like what's important about you, for them to hear or know today? Well,

Allison Marco: 1:10

I am a pastor's wife have been for about 25 years now. Mom of six, grandmother of six. So that is really where my heart is right there. And I love to garden, I love to paint and I love to bake when I have some food. And

Laurie Acker: 1:28

that's awesome. When did your like ministry service begin in churches? When did you start serving like in churches,

Allison Marco: 1:34

I grew up in church. And so I've always had some something that I've served in. So I've been in children's ministry for probably 30 years. And then as a pastor's wife, you know, you just get to do all kinds of things. So

Laurie Acker: 1:50

yeah, like what tell everybody what you have done, because that's this is one of the things sometimes people in larger churches find us and they say, Well, what's so different about small church ministry, it's so different, y'all. And one of the things that makes it really different is, most of us wear multiple hats, like I've served in, you know, on staff at large churches, and most people in larger churches, you have one ministry area where you really serve, you don't get called on for everything. So can you tell everybody like if the church needed you, what are you skilled at? And what have you done that's kept your small church going?

Allison Marco: 2:22

Well, one of the things that I love to do is kind of be the hostess. So when people come in, I get to greet everybody say, hello. I also do some things with the PowerPoint slides. For the morning worship service. I've taught in Sunday school, children's church youth group. I've also been on the social committee, which is in charge of just putting on all the meals and social activities for the church. I do a lot with ladies ministry. I'm also a certified biblical counselor. So I do some counseling. And if that doesn't keep me busy enough, I clean the church.

Laurie Acker: 2:59

Is that all?

Allison Marco: 3:02

Well, I could probably add more to the list over the years. But yes.

Laurie Acker: 3:08

How about worship? Have you done anything with worship? Because that was one thing that you didn't really mention other than like PowerPoint in the slides. Tell me about the worship team.

Allison Marco: 3:16

I am on worship team. So occasionally, I can pick out the music, but most of the time I just sing.

Laurie Acker: 3:22

Okay, so that's a big thing that you left off the list. Yes. So worship, children's ministry, youth ministry, women's ministry, hospitality, cleaning, which is also facilities and PowerPoint slides. So pretty much everything. Yeah, yeah. Everything. So yeah. And I, you know, I think it's really important to talk about that, because sometimes we can do a lot and stay contained. And sometimes we do a lot and get burnt out. Have you ever experienced burnout? Have you ever gone have gone through a time where this was really too much? And you know, let's talk

Allison Marco: 3:54

about that a little bit. Well, when I found this group, a few years ago, I was really to the point of despair, burnout, ready to quit, just really in a bad place. We had just gone through a lot of changes, we had moved COVID hit, there was a lot of just tension and conflict inside of our church body. And so I was really looking for a place to get some help find some support and some community. And so I got on Facebook one day, and I saw at that point, it was just the creative creative solutions, website Facebook page, and I joined that. And that led me to my very first conference, which was the pastor's wife conference, and that was in July of 2021. And that's kind of where our ministry started doing a web ad and it really changed. Wow.

Laurie Acker: 4:49

So that's where you and I met? Yeah. Was that the pastor's wives conference in 2021. For those of you listening now, if you're not familiar, kind of with the history of our organization, we started off Her name was the creative little church, which everybody had a hard time saying. So we switched it to small church ministry. But our pastors wives conference actually became married to the pastor, which is a conference for pastors spouses, that happens at the end of July. And so that's where you and I met kind of will tell more of that story later. But I remember Allison, you know, when I just asked you about being burnt out, I didn't know you were going to actually share that story of finding us but But speaking of that, I remember when you found us, I just still laugh right now just seeing your big smile. I wish everyone could see your smile, because you were stretched like, and that's probably a nice way of saying you really were on the edge of burnout.

Allison Marco: 5:44

I was maybe I was totally wiped out, I wasn't on the edge of burnout, I was burnt out, and then to pass that I think, ready to quit.

Laurie Acker: 5:54

And many people who get to that place in ministry, small church, big church, middle sized church, whatever, a lot of times they do quit, many people at that edge actually leave the church and never come back. Because there doesn't seem to be a way to kind of recover or bounce back. So you joined you don't our membership at the time, I think it was called better together. And now it's called the small church network. But can you What helped you? How did you do this turnaround? Because you're, you're such a different person now?

Allison Marco: 6:20

I think it was, you have such a different mindset. So that was the very first change for me was, instead of looking at all of the lack, you know, if we just had more volunteers, if we just had more finances, if we just just just this this this, instead of looking at that, you helped me to see that there was a starting point of where are you? What do you have? And where can you go from that starting point. And so that was really a very helpful mindset. Also, I learned how to say no, that was huge for me to be able to just really evaluate what it was that I should be doing, where my talents do lie and not feeling that need to have to fill all of the holes and do all the things. And so that really helped me to focus on the things that I do love and the things that I do do well, and say no to the things that I'm not so great at.

Laurie Acker: 7:18

Yeah, and these are easy things like to say and harder to do, right? Like Learn to say no, and look at what you do have, can we get super practical? And like when you started hearing, what do I have? Right? So don't look at lack. Look at what you do have what has God provided? What did you start noticing? Like, what was that shift for you? What did you see that you had?

Allison Marco: 7:40

Yeah, well, I

Laurie Acker: 7:41

noticed some people would say I don't have anything. I literally have no volunteers. I have no that. And I think you were kind of there. So what did you start seeing that you have?

Allison Marco: 7:48

Well, actually, we have a church filled with people who do something, almost every single person in our church serves. I mean, it's a small little church, but everybody serves in some way or capacity. So the problem wasn't really, that we didn't have people doing things, which is kind of how I felt about it. But what I realized was, we're doing too many things for the people for the people that we have. And and because I didn't know how to say no, I also didn't allow the grace and the ability for people to say no, I felt like they were rejecting me, or didn't care or didn't want to, you know, didn't work wasn't concerned about the ministry or whatever. And I had a really negative viewpoint then about that. And so then I felt like I had to step up. So that was really a big mental change for our, our whole entire culture of our church was just the freedom to say no, and then to evaluate, okay, if nobody's serving in this area, then why do we have it or why are we trying to push it? Instead of taking a step back and saying, Okay, what is it that this ministry is about? Should we have it?

Laurie Acker: 9:35

Okay, I love what you said there because you know, for those supper everyone listening, when you said, I wasn't saying no, I didn't give myself the freedom to say no. So I wasn't giving anyone else the freedom to say no, and you started talking about like the culture of your church. And I think that's really key. Because when we are stretched and overstretched and not saying no, we get pretty angry when other people say no, like we don't let them like it's no longer a request. Could you help it's like a demand like you need to help otherwise you're like part of the problem and we put a lot on other people. How did you start either getting the freedom to say no yourself or giving other people the freedom to say no, because people listening small churches we are trying to do so much. How can we say no? Well, what what changed that for you?

Allison Marco: 10:24

Yeah, it was really actually a very simple it was a script that I got from the conference on third, third Seeing ways to say no. And you're used to that I did, I memorized a couple of the ways, because I just feel so awkward in those situations. I don't know how to say no, right, you know, properly and with grace. And so I literally memorize the script, practiced it. And then I started, you know, I started implementing that. And because I had practice it in front of the mirror, it felt more natural to me. And and so that's actually how I started to say no. And I also just asked God to help me remember to just not say yes, not be a yes person right away to just take some some moments to say, I will get back to you.

Laurie Acker: 11:17

And that Okay, so I'm totally gonna put you on the spot. Do you remember any parts of the script? Like if somebody asks you something now, how would you teach other people? This is what helped me this is how you can say no,

Allison Marco: 11:27

okay, well, this is what I learned. This is what I don't remember if this is exactly the exact script, but I just said, Wow, that sounds really amazing. But I don't think it fits in my calendar. So I'm gonna have to say no. Okay,

Laurie Acker: 11:43

so you're kind of affirming them. That sounds like an amazing thing. But isn't that my calendar? Cool. Simple enough, right? It was? Yeah. And how often do we get so awkward? Or like you said, just putting a pause in between that I just don't say yes, right away, like, I'll call you tomorrow. I know. That's one of the things that I learned to do. Several years back was because I'm not really a yes person. Like, I would never have considered myself like a please like a people pleaser. But I have a big capacity, right? So always feel like I can do it. Like I'm not saying it just makes you happy. But I feel like, oh, I want to help and I could do it. But I started doing that pause where I just don't say yes to anything right away. And I always say, Hey, that sounds awesome. Let me check my calendar. And I'll get back to you. And I think even that, let me check my calendar. And I'll get back to you was enough of a pause for me to really be able to go back and kind of consider, okay, so other than saying no to things, because this is kind of turning into Hey, what did Allison learn? And how can we learn from her and apply it to into our ministries? Right? That's kind of what this podcast is. What else have you learned that's really helped you because you are coming in now with a lot of joy, and a lot of forward thinking and excitement about ministry. So what else made a difference for you? Well,

Allison Marco: 12:52

along with saying no, I think the next thing that happened, then we're we had all these holes that we needed to decide what to do with. So if we didn't have somebody to say yes to the nursery, then we had to decide what we wanted to do about that. And so that meant a lot of conversations with people and really listening well, asking some good questions. It also meant letting go of some things that we felt maybe was important. And letting those things go, we actually learned a lot about just what is really necessary for church and what isn't necessary. You know, what is a lot of times what we think we have to have, we find out that you know what, we really didn't have to have it.

Laurie Acker: 13:38

Can you give some examples of some of the things that you let go

Allison Marco: 13:41

of? Sure. Well, we have recently let go of Sunday school. Oh, we are all ages for all ages, for all ages. We last year decided not to decorate for Christmas, we always have like a hanging of the green. And we Yep, we didn't do it last year.

Laurie Acker: 14:02

So did that make anybody sad? Is it a matter? Did it feel fine?

Allison Marco: 14:06

I think it was sad at the beginning. But then once we talked about it, it was like Well, somebody's got to go in and pull that all down. And that was really the problem of, you know, setup is always fun teardown not so much so we've also just changed a lot of the the way that we do things. We we started writing out core values, we started talking about what we want to be what kind of culture do we want in our church and listening to people and having family discussion family church family discussions that really helped us to narrow a lot of that down.

Laurie Acker: 14:44

I love it what's been the most fun or you know, maybe unique maybe creative or maybe just really healthy thing that you've done over the past couple years that you're like this is one thing we did that really we love this and other people should know about it.

Allison Marco: 15:01

Hmm I think a lot of the last couple of years has really been making our our church a safe place. I think that's really been a lot of our focus is we had a lot of conflict for for a long time. And we also had that mindset of that I think a lot of churches have I grew up in a church like this and we definitely had this mindset ourselves that you know, we you have to be serving you have to be doing it all it has to look a certain way and forcing people into this model or this mold. And, and now, we've learned that we can do and be whatever we want to be, as long as we're teaching the, you know, the gospel, and we're loving people. And we're and we're true to the Bible, we don't have to have any sort of pattern. So we've been getting ready to actually talk about have a discussion group based on the sermon after the service as as kind of a tag on to the end of our service instead of Sunday school. So listening to people in our church, they wanted to have more discussion and more to grow some unity, and to take some of the weight off of my husband, who's was a full time pastor, but now has had to get a job. And he's not as available to people. And so can we, as a church body, come along each other and support each other and help each other and so we're gonna, we're gonna actually start doing that as part of our worship service in the morning on Sundays. Wow. So

Laurie Acker: 16:34

after the sermon, are people like staying in the, you know, Worship Center to discuss you do in small groups? Are you kind of sticking them back in rooms like a Sunday school? Or what is that going to look like? Well,

Allison Marco: 16:43

we're hoping that it looks like a very fast, mash up of people. So if you like red over here, if you like green over there, if you'd like blue over here type of thing to full sweeps very quickly. And then we're going to have a couple of discussion questions that they can choose from and discuss for 1015 minutes. And then we're gonna get back together as a church body and talk about what each group, you know, share, share with each other, what each group talked about.

Laurie Acker: 17:10

Sweet, so kind of like a big group like workshop where you're breaking into small groups in the same room, and then coming back together, that is so fun, I cannot wait to hear how that goes with you. And I also want to just applaud you and Daryl for for trying something new. You know, I think so many times, we're so used to doing everything the same, right? And we feel like we don't have the freedom, like you just said, and here you are creating something and saying, Hey, we're gonna we're gonna try this. And check it out. So are you nervous at all? Are you scared? It's not gonna work? Or are you just like way to go?

Allison Marco: 17:42

Well, you know, a lot of the things that I've that I've learned through the small church Academy and the network is that it's okay to give it a try. And if it doesn't work, it just reevaluate it. So we already have a reevaluation on the calendar. So we're gonna do it for a few weeks, probably six weeks, I think, depending on when we start. And then we're gonna reevaluate it as a church body and ask some questions and find out how we can do it better or if it's working or not working. And so if it doesn't, it's okay. It's okay. Because that's one of the big cultural changes is, you know, being able to practice in try and fail and succeed in a safe place. Yeah,

Laurie Acker: 18:26

well, I love that you mentioned a safe place so that you know, your before and after journey, you know, we meet and you are burned out. And I believe you and your husband, were both ready just to throw in the towel, right? Like you were just kind of done. And three years later, there is like this renewal in spirit, you talked about saying no. Not doing so much and allowing other people to say no, letting go of ministries. You talked about trying new things. You've talked about creating a safe place, which is so interesting. That's a whole nother podcast, like how do you even create a safe place out of conflict? Do you want to talk a little bit about the steps of, of what you've done to create a safe place? Because I know for many churches it's not it's not a safe place, like so many things are unsaid and you know, there's conflict, but you don't want to say anything, because this person's louder, or that person's on the council or whatever, what are some of those things that have helped you kind of create that?

Allison Marco: 19:23

I think it's the first thing is just the realization that instead of the, you know, I only have one or our churches only 30, or something like that, that every person has value and importance. And it's something that we say a lot, but when you when we stopped and thought about our core values, that was one of the things that just kept coming up is wanting to be heard wanting to feel valuable wanting to feel belonged. And so then how do we create that? How do we do that? And it starts on individuals, you know, one on one, it starts with me, just treating that person in front of me as if they really have value, the value that they do have, and having those conversations one on one and then bringing that forward into every conversation, every group, every committee and reminding people you know, my husband reminds people from the pulpit to that, you know, hey, this is this is one of our core values safe place. It looks like this. It does that. Starting off some of our discussions with we want everybody to feel heard and Appreciate it for their ideas, and just kind of setting the stage for that.

Laurie Acker: 20:37

Yeah, it's so important. You know, as you're talking. I know, we've talked mostly about church like specifically, what you're doing in church where you've changed in church, you have gone through, I think, a lot of personal renewal as well. What has been key for you in that? And I, I want to tell you why I'm asking because so many people who find us who are listening to this podcast right now, they are where you were three years ago. And I think sometimes we need to know, it's not just what's happening in church, or in the church organization, or even in the church family. A lot of times, there's some just deep stuff in our hearts. And so can you speak to that a little bit,

Allison Marco: 21:16

I think that the changes that have happened inside of our church started with me, because, and the church, the changing and changes of the church, and the people around me are kind of the overflow of that. So the very first thing that you do when somebody joins is you you have a conversation with them, you talk with them one on one, and you asked me this question, you asked me, What do I do that refreshes me? Or fills me up? Or something like that? I had no answer for that question at all. I didn't even know that that was really something that I even needed in my life. The thought of answering it made me feel guilty, that I don't I don't have time to like spend any, any amount of time on myself, why would I do that? That's so selfish. And in through this process, I I've learned that I'm a person just like everybody else. And I have value and importance. And if I am doing my own self care, if I'm working on myself, if I'm taking that time that I need to spend with God and fill myself up and you know, be renewed, I am so much better. When I show up on Sunday or Wednesday or whatever. I'm so much better of a person. And so giving myself grace, and giving myself some compassion has allowed me to have more compassion and grace for other people. And so that would be that was the very first step for me was okay, what do I do? Or what can I do to fill myself up?

Laurie Acker: 22:56

You're right, I do ask that question a lot to people even when I meet them. And so three years ago, if I had said, Allison, what do you do? You know, to refresh yourself? Or fill yourself up? You had no answer. And so can I just ask you right now on the air, with hundreds of people listening? What do you do? What do you do now to refresh you or fill you up?

Allison Marco: 23:16

Well, at first I did all kinds of things, trying to figure it out, because I didn't know. So I just tried different things. I have fallen in love with just withdrawing the sketching. It's very refreshing to me, I do some painting. I love to write in journal. And I've taken it now to even another step of realizing that my health and self care is part of taking care of myself. It's not just an activity that I enjoy. But what can I do to make myself healthier? And so that's, you know, changing the way that I that I'm eating and drinking more water and getting a little bit a little bit more exercise. I'm still working on that one a little bit. But yeah, you know, things like that as well. Like it's, it's a whole journey. It's not just one thing. It's mental, spiritual and physical.

Laurie Acker: 24:11

Another question I often ask people, especially when they joined, the network is like, Who's Who's on your support team who cheer leads you? And if I had asked you that three years ago, what would you have said,

Allison Marco: 24:22

nobody. My husband and I are kind of like a lone island out there in the middle of a hurricane. So and

Laurie Acker: 24:30

now I would love to know who is on your support team who cheer leads you on?

Allison Marco: 24:36

Yeah, I have a lot of people who support me a lot of them came through the small church network. That's just one of the huge blessings that the network has provided for me. So I love Kristin, human sin. I've talked to her. And Tammy Adams. I love she's like my prayer, my prayer person, if I really need prayer, I can go to her and, and so I do have people and the nice thing is to is there outside of my church circle. And that's been really important and critical for me to have that safety. And that place that I can go

Laurie Acker: 25:08

Yeah, I love it. You know, and it is so important that we have people in our corner and I say this a lot that God God put us on this planet to for connection. Like we're supposed to learn in community we are supposed to grow in community. We are supposed to love in community, and sometimes our churches become places where we serve and pour out but we really don't feel that community and that support and so I love that you have found it for yourself and fought for it and searched for it like this three years has not been easy. I know. And because you are getting healthier, and finding all this, you mentioned your church culture is changing. Yes. Because we're modeling more health. Love it, love it. Love it when people model more health. Okay, we're almost at a time. So we just got to share our fun story. So Alison, read my bio. How long ago was it?

Allison Marco: 25:58

I think just I think it was when you when you had your last birthday, you kind of wrote a little bit of a, of a bio or testimony. So

Laurie Acker: 26:07

a few months ago, and Alison, like sends me a message I can't remember if you mark good me or sent me a message and you said,

Allison Marco: 26:15

did you graduate from Medina High School in 1988, because I graduated from Medina High School 1988. Of course, I just gave our age. So sorry about that.

Laurie Acker: 26:25

But that's fine. So it turns out that I did not meet Ellison three years ago, we actually not only graduated from the same high school, which had 400 people in it. So we don't always know you know, who in our graduating class, like our graduating class was over 400. And so we may not have seen each other too much in high school, but we went to this tiny little Baptist School and sat in the same classroom. In junior high, right, like, I'm like, Who in the world knew. Now we both had different last names at the time. But So Alison, we've known each other longer than most people. Yeah,

Allison Marco: 27:01

that was a small world. It's such a small world. Such

Laurie Acker: 27:06

a small, small world. So I like to tell people we met three years ago, but we didn't like I haven't done the math. But it was quite a long time ago, when apparently, we liked the same boy in junior high, so

Allison Marco: 27:19

and neither one of us married them. So

Laurie Acker: 27:21

no, no, neither one of us did. Now, we didn't have to fight over him. You know, don't remember that at all. But we did like the same boy. So anyway. Alison, thank you so much for being on the podcast with us today. It's such a pleasure to know you. And also just to, like I feel honored to, to walk with you through all this and to see your church. Again, a small church just being a light in the community and really, almost like a satellite for healing and for hope for the people, you know, who were in a lot of conflict and had a lot of stuff going on. So. So way to go tell Daryl I said hey, and I'm sure we will talk again soon. That sounds good.

Allison Marco: 28:03

Yeah. Thanks for having me on. It was fun. Yeah,

Laurie Acker: 28:06

absolutely. All right. If you're listening in don't forget next week, we will be live with another new episode of the small church ministry podcast. And do me a favor before you go. If you are finding encouragement, or hope or skill or knowledge or anything from these podcasts, would you please share it with a friend. And one of the best ways to let people also just know about us and even find us is to leave a review for this podcast. So if you could give us some stars and especially if you can leave a review. That would be really awesome. If you're not sure how you can follow a link in the show notes. Maggie has dropped a great link in there so you can leave us a review as well. So until next week, everybody be like