132: Church Growth & The Comparison Trap | with Cledra Gross

Comparing numbers seems unavoidable in church ministry. For those of us in small churches, comparison can leave us feeling defeated. 

Today’s guest shares why numbers are not the end of the story and often send people in directions that are not based on biblical truth. 

Join the conversation with ministry leader Cledra Gross as she unpacks a bit of her journey from a big church to a small church and the comparison trap ministry leaders fall into. 

Listen in to hear:

• How comparison is normal, but it doesn’t need to be negative
• Ways to recognize that you’re doing great ministry even if numbers don’t reflect your success
• The benefits of holding church in a middle school and not having your own building
• Why it’s important to recognize the theme of lack that accompanies comparison and how to change the narrative

Get your free ticket to the Married to the Pastor Conference >> www.smallchurchsummits.com/ps2024

Connect with Cledra Gross:
https://www.cledra.com/
https://www.facebook.com/cledramccullersgross
https://www.instagram.com/cledragross/ 

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Transcript

Laurie Acker: 0:01

Hey, this is Laurie Acker. Welcome to the small church ministry podcast welcome back to another episode of the small church ministry podcast where we really see the delight of God in utilizing his people humbled before him serving in spaces of all sizes, no matter how small. Today on the podcast, we have Cleopatra gross with us. And she has been a really influential person in my life personally. She speaks at our conferences, she serves well, and she serves wholeheartedly. So Clara, let us jump right in. And I would love for you just to introduce the topic that was on your heart. Like, let's talk about this.

Cledra Gross: 0:55

I love it. So let's talk about comparing and despairing in ministry in small ministry and how when we compare, that can only lead to us feeling a sense of despair about where we are.

Laurie Acker: 1:09

Wait, wait, are you saying that comparing and despairing actually happens in small ministries? Like do we see this? Is this common?

Cledra Gross: 1:18

You know, maybe like a church down the street? Yes. Yeah.

Laurie Acker: 1:22

So we're, you know, wherever you're listening from, I just want to just invite you into this. So whether you are volunteering in women's ministry, you're serving your heart out with the kids, you are the pastor, you're a council member, you're a deacon, however you came in here today. Consider the words compare and despair. where this fits in your circle in your life in your heart. And I think it's so great, just to be honest, that, you know, we want to rah rah and say, Oh, God is here, God is present. We're doing his work. But deep down inside, I think many of us have had these feelings of compare and despair and Cleator. Where do you think this comes from? Like, I'd love to talk just a little bit about where does this even bubble up from?

Cledra Gross: 2:08

I think at the root of it, it comes from just our human nature. And just when we listen, when we start school, we start out comparing, you know, we're graded, and we have grades, it's a comparison, our height and weight, when we go get our physicals like we It starts as little children. I think that this idea that there's some standard we shouldn't meet, and someone outside of us in a position of authority says, Oh, you're on track, because you meet the the majority, or the average. Yeah, it's this pursuit of this looks great, because most people look this way.

Laurie Acker: 2:47

Yeah. You know, I think to like, numbers, I think are comforting, like, it's when we can fit things in a box, it feels like oh, I can tell when I'm doing a good job or not, or like you're talking even children, like our growth rates, like I'm thinking when my kids would go to the doctor, like what percentile they are right? Are they going to be tall? Are they really short,

Cledra Gross: 3:07

and you get excited? Because your normal range? You know, and I think the first 18 years for all of us, we have 18 years of this linear life. And I think then we bring that into everything we do, including

Laurie Acker: 3:22

church. Yeah. And what's the problem with that?

Cledra Gross: 3:25

The problem, especially in ministry, is that God has something unique for every model, and mission of ministry, you know, for the soil, your ministry is planted in, there's something unique for that location, and for the people call there. And for the mission for that location that cannot be compared to even the mission down the street, or on the next block. And so, the challenge with that is when we start looking outside of ourselves, instead of, you know, listening to God about what he has for us, or making conclusions about ourselves because of what we see with other people, then we're no longer doing the work of just making God the center. And discipleship, the focus,

Laurie Acker: 4:17

serving so how do we know when we've done a good job? Or should that even be a focus to like know when we've done a good job? Because I think one of the things about this as we meet with more and more people in small churches is like, Yeah, but but how do we know we're doing? We're doing God's work then like we say, We're doing God's work.

Cledra Gross: 4:37

I think we have to go back to the Bible. What does he say as success? What is the greatest commandment? Love God, love others. As we love ourselves, I mean, that's the greatest commandment and to reach other people new souls. That's really it. I think we've overcomplicated. I think we've kind of added layers of complexity by looking at other ministries and trying to be carbon copies, as opposed to standing, you know, in our own ground of of calling, and positioning.

Laurie Acker: 5:15

So you have clutter, I know in your life, you have experience small church, big church, medium sized church, country, church, City Church, like you have been in a lot of different church cultures. Can you share a little bit about the uniqueness or even maybe how God has grown your view of success in church, any fun stories along the way?

Cledra Gross: 5:37

You know, I think, to use the analogy of church, I want to use the analogy of how I grew up in as an only child. That's a family of three. And when I was younger, I would think, man, it would be nice if more people were in the house. And now at this age, the intimacy that I was allowed to have with both of my parents, the connection I have with both of my parents, I see this very much like small church, the intimacy, and the conversations that we can have and the connection and the vulnerability, the transparency, I wouldn't trade it at all. Yeah, you know. And so that's the analogy I would use. And you know, I'm not here to say that large churches, you can't have that. It's just different, very different. It's just very different. And when I now at 53, I can I'm so appreciate appreciative of being raised in a family of three. And being a, you know, in small ministry, I'm equally appreciative of small ministry. I don't I don't have that longing that I wish we were different. Are there things I wish we could change? Absolutely. But I do. I'm very intentional about just being very grateful for where we are in the lives we can impact. You know, right now.

Laurie Acker: 7:02

Yeah, yeah. So tell us about your ministry now.

Cledra Gross: 7:07

So we moved to North Carolina, and my husband and I in 2020. And we were led to plant a church here in North Carolina. And so it's totally new. We just became offline as far as Sunday service in January. And so we're a small ministry, we meet in the middle school. And we love that, that we get to bring the gospel to a school on Sundays, and pray in the halls of that school. And so it has been amazing the people who have come just because they saw the flag at the entrance, you know, just because they were passing by, and that's what makes me so, I mean, the custodial staff, they have been blessed. People we never would have been able to reach. You know, had we not, you know, been led by faith to plant a church there. So, I just, I love doing life with people real life, not the highlight reel, but real life, the highs, the lows, the amazing times the challenging times. I enjoy it. I mean, am I challenged by it, too? Absolutely. But I would say overall, I really enjoyed the authentic connections.

Laurie Acker: 8:20

Okay, so you're saying you are like feeling blessed that your church meets in the middle school can Can I just say that most people who don't have their own church buildings are not feeling blessed, that they're meeting in the middle school, they are praying for a building, they're looking for property, they are begging God to send people so they can have a building. And this totally speaks into the Compare and despair conversation that we're in. How do we not compare and despair? And how do you find the blessing in what many people honestly would see as a curse?

Cledra Gross: 9:29

I think it starts with being honest about what do you think? Like, if someone has that question or that prayer? What do you think that's going to solve? Because I think answering that question of if we just had a building because like you said, I've been in a church with 20 people, I've been in a church with 7000. And what I know is that the problems don't go away, they just change. So I would really be curious about what you think the building will solve. It will solve the logistics of setting up and taking down absolutely, it'll solve like a lot of things and it will create additional challenges. So I think that's really the question. What do you think it'll solve it because if you are honest about what it will solve, you will see that a lot of the challenges you have in ministry will just scale they will not go away.

Laurie Acker: 10:25

Yeah, and new ones get created. I know we talked a lot of people in small churches who wish they had more families and they will wish they had more kids. And I just know from teaching children on many scales and many ages. Give me three any day like, I can go deep. I can know them individually. Give me 30. Yeah, in some sense, it's more fun. But like that is it's no better. Like you're saying you're you're trading one thing for another. And I think when you talk about comparison Clethra, this is where I want to building because they have a building, I want a bigger program, because I see that. And when we see those things, we're seeing the highlight reel, usually eight, right, like we're seeing we are good stuff that this one thing brings. And I think that comparison conversation, this is such a great conversation.

Cledra Gross: 11:17

Well, I also think it's everything you just said. And I would invite that person, you know, whoever's thinking like that. And listen, we're no one's exempt. Is there some status attachment there? Like what do you say to yourself about people who have buildings and who have large ministries? What is the narrative? Because that's going to be really important. Because if you can write that out on paper, do you see some way up of putting them on a pedestal? Is there some pedestal worship going on there? Because if there isn't a lot of parity in what you see, and instead, you see, it must be better for them? Because they have these large conferences and these large, whatever. And what do you make that mean that yours isn't that yours is small, because it's the meaning we give to the large and the small, that makes it compare and despair as opposed to compare and be inspired. It is possible to compare and be inspired. But that's only if you're seeing some parity, some some some, like sameness, in terms of we're all on the same team, regardless of the size of the people attending.

Laurie Acker: 12:29

Yeah, you know, a lot of what you're talking about, for me, is the message of the modern church today, which, honestly, I'm kind of on a mission to change or squash down or throw to the dirt. You know, this whole concept that if you are healthy, you are growing in number. I mean, how many places can we find that in books on the internet being taught at conferences, denominational things? And some people look at me like, I'm the crazy one, like, yeah, if if we're evangelizing your church is going to grow? And how, how do you think we can step into that conversation today? Because it's not just one person making it up? Like, this is a thing that is being taught. This is kind of invasive in the church culture. That I mean, pastors have been told by denominations that they are failing, because they have not grown in number, like we hear these stories all the time. And you and I are on here saying, well, it's not really Jesus, that's not really biblical. How do you think we can speak this in here?

Cledra Gross: 13:34

You know, I think there's a difference in growing numbers and growing depth. And so and the differences what's, what happens after they join? It's not about just gathering communities, because they're there. There's this push, like you said, and this is very much an echo chamber of yes, this is what Me too. Me, too. It's an echo chamber, where people are adopting this without really thinking critically about, what does this really mean? You know, are we discipling? Are we teaching our people maturing in their faith? Are they are they going deeper in the Bible and their understanding and their application of the word? Or are they gathering together for programs? And so there's a difference and I think, the more we get your message out and, and continue to be that voice of timeout. What are we really doing? I love the way my husband says, you know, infection grows to swells also.

Laurie Acker: 14:41

That's a good one. Isn't that good? Yeah.

Cledra Gross: 14:44

I love that. It's like so you can't just judge it by growth. Because infection growth.

Laurie Acker: 14:52

Yeah, you know, as you were talking, one thing that popped in my mind is, you know, as you were talking about growth and depth, I think it is easier to grow in number than growing depth. And I think it's more comfortable. Because if I'm not growing in depth, like I mean to live the Christian life and throw you know, women's ministry events and do walking clubs and book clubs and and Bible studies, even we can get stuck in Bible studies that feels good and comfortable. And I wonder sometimes that personally, we've kind of hit plateaus of we know Jesus, we love Jesus. We're going I tell everybody else about Jesus. And we hit a point where a transformation in us like, isn't happening now, we wouldn't recognize it or say it because I talked to people all the time. But when it really comes down to it, am I am I a different person today than I was last week? I pray so.

Cledra Gross: 15:51

And that's reflected how by your fruit. So we should be able to see it. But what I you know, and I like to say this, I don't like to say it, but I do say it is that most people don't have a new year, they have a happy same year. And they repeat the same thing. Happily, year after year after year in the church, the same programs, they say the same phrases, it becomes these little cliche sayings, but in terms of what you're talking about the actual transformation in our health, our finances, our relationships, our marriages, our families, you know, why are we not leading in the Christian community with that we should be? We should be. Yeah. There's no reason we shouldn't we have the most powerful we we have everything we need and all sufficient Christ. So our lives should reflect that to your point. Areas of transport, how we get along with each other, how we resolve conflict. Where's all of that? Yeah, yeah. But like you said, it's easier to just be beside you eating cotton.

Laurie Acker: 17:02

Yeah. Yeah. It's more fun, isn't it?

Cledra Gross: 17:05

It's a lot more fun, at least for the short term until like all of our teeth, right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's what's happening happening. There's a rotting. Yeah, the fruit is rotting because it can't be served we know is healthy fruit because it can be served to other people. Yeah.

Laurie Acker: 17:22

Well, you know, one of my favorite things I was reflecting the other day, just on small church ministry, this is our, our fourth year anniversary, which is shocking. That's even four years. But I, I think for me, what's happened in my life personally, and how I've been blessed as I feel like my world has gotten larger. Like, I feel like the connections I have where my world used to be super small, you know, being able to have this conversation with you being able to, you know, have a conversation with Charmaine and Toronto or, you know, you know, Tony and D out in the UK like, these are people have depth and have, I want to say, we can have so much fun and laugh together. But there is a depth of responsibility and seriousness about discipleship about growing in Christ and not just having events. How does that sit with you?

Cledra Gross: 18:24

I mean, that excites me the fact that we can find people now because of social media. That's the best thing about it, I think the connections, the genuine connections, and to be excited about what really matters, which is discipleship, what really matters in life, but that's not always exciting. But it's commitment, and it's consistency and is putting works with our faith is is applying it and not just recite. Yeah, yeah.

Laurie Acker: 18:57

You know, and I really do believe that as we as we grow as disciples that that our call is to make disciples. And at the same time, I'm seeing that being reflected across the globe, and not just in one local church. Yeah, that's where I'm seeing that, you know, like, it doesn't mean that we have to attract everybody into our little one location, like how many people could your middle school even hold? You know what I mean? Like, if you think about that, right. And yet, you are a light in that, you know, if you can think about, I just think about these concentric, concentric circles or like a circle around, you know, like, what your reach is at that, at that school, or at a church. So let's talk before we run out of too much time I clicked or I can just so go deep with you. Like, I just wish we could have like a slumber party, we would never sleep, right. We're just contemplating and looking at the stars now and then right. But talk to us a little bit about your school outreach and how you have built relationships there. You know, you talked about the janitorial staff, like let's talk just for a minute, if you're willing to about the very church plant nests of being in a school, and where you have seen, you know, advantages and God work in unique ways.

Cledra Gross: 20:13

Absolutely. So, one of my favorite ways that we've been able to intervene is with what we call the backpack ministry with with children who during the summer, they, you know, without school will not have enough to eat. And so we've had an initiative where you could fill The backpack to send a child home with and we wouldn't have known about that need, have we not been like boots on the ground, so to speak, you know, as well as the reading program, we've had members go over to read to the children. And that has been something that's really good. They, you know, seeing my husband, he's six, six, they love to see him. And so and so even something simple was when I go grocery shopping, and I have on the shirt. People ask me, oh, my daughter goes to that school. I didn't know that you were meeting there on Sunday. So it's just in the simple ways that just really makes community. And to me, knowing that we have that kind of impact in a child's life, you know, and we have the advocacy from the community to be there. That makes me feel like you know what, at the end of the day, if this is how I'm spending my life, that's what really matters. Yeah, yeah. That's success. In ministry. Yeah.

Laurie Acker: 21:32

And your church planting road has not been super smooth or super easy. You've had challenges. I know, I've been part of, you know, hearing some of them and just being with you through it, can you talk a little bit about some of the challenges and more so how God sustained you or changed your mind or your heart in the perspective of it all?

Cledra Gross: 21:50

You know, the challenge, I'll just get practical of setup and breakdown. Prior to this school, we were in a recreation center where we had to get there to set up the chairs set up the tables. And it was mainly women doing that, and my husband and one other man. And it was hard. It was challenging. And sometimes the the children from the recreation center would trash the place, and we'd have to vacuum before. I mean, it's almost like you're exhausted before you even get to service. But he sustained us and our prayer was that we could go where we wouldn't have the setup of the chairs and the table. So we're there now in a school, you know, but we've had challenges there as well. You know, there's a certain time you can get in the school, there's a certain time you have to get out. And we know that you know, helping people doesn't always follow a timeline, like being sensitive to the spirit and sensitive to the needs of people. Do the challenges, you know, the financial challenges that come with it? And being faithful in terms of our tithing and praying that God would send us people who would also be faithful in their tithing? And he has, yeah, yeah, he

Laurie Acker: 22:59

has. So what keeps you going?

Cledra Gross: 23:02

What keeps me going is a daily practice. And I know you didn't know this, but I'll say it up, I have what I call working out, which is my physical practice working through which is more my spiritual practice of journaling and, and then working within the spiritual practices is doing the work of applying the word and addressing all parts. My three part being, you know, I believe leadership starts with me, the first person I get to lead everyday is myself. And I know that without that, then downstream will only get worse if I don't take care of myself. So I am a strong advocate of, of taking great care of yourself in order to be able to do this and obviously, spiritually, but physically and emotionally as well.

Laurie Acker: 23:50

So we started off this podcast talking about comparing despair. And that it's, it's pretty common. And not I wouldn't even just say in small churches, I think it's common in big churches and mid sized churches too, and even in our personal lives. But I know you're a coach also. And you're a fabulous coach of many, many people. If someone is listening now in their in the depths of compare and despair. What practical coaching tips, how do we lead ourselves out of that, like you said, lead yourself, so that we can, you know, even have a greater impact on other people like we lead us first. Give us some practical? How can we move out of comparing despair? And maybe even What's the opposite of compare and despair? That's a great question, right? Like, what's the opposite? of comparing despair?

Cledra Gross: 24:42

I can answer both. So practical ways to get out of it. The first thing is to normalize being in it is normal is human, to compare and despair. And then the second thing is to understand that it's always a theme of not enough and lack. There's some narrative somewhere in your mind, that where you are isn't enough. And I would take that to God that know where you are right now is enough. And I just want to say that to everyone listening, where you are, is enough. What you have is enough, you are enough, just as you are with what you have in your hand, it's enough. And that's the work of believing that and then work to build your belief that you're enough. And I think that leads me to so what's the opposite fit is to compare and love, compare and love, love that God has blessed them with the increase that he has in you as well. And they are equal blessings. We don't rank blessings, right? They're equal blessings. Do they just may have different missions? Yeah. But they're equal in terms of God's kingdom. tremendous impact impacting one life is amazing. So that's what I would say in a practical sense that we really have to watch that that soundtrack that we all have where we get into, it's just not enough for where I am right now. Or I'm not enough with what I have right now. It's just not true. It's a lie. And

Laurie Acker: 26:18

here I was thinking you were gonna say to quit comparing, and I love that you just said no, go ahead and compare compare, just to compare and love, like, how we can do that and still embrace our own uniqueness. And I really do believe that is the beauty and the God given, I don't know, superpower of a small church is the uniqueness. It's the gathering of people with different gifts than the church down the street, a different passion than the church down the street, different abilities, different diversities than the church down the street. Like why in the world? Would we want to mimic another place when God has called us to be so unique?

Cledra Gross: 27:00

Exactly. And the more we can offer love for for the comparison and even pray and like God, bless them continue to give them increase and pray for yourself like both, then the more your heart will be changed. Yeah. As opposed to praying to be like them.

Laurie Acker: 27:16

Yeah, yeah. Wow. Well, you've just sent me into a whole different reflective space probably for the rest of the day, which is usually what you do to me Clethra.

Cledra Gross: 27:28

I'm thinking, Well, I

Laurie Acker: 27:30

am blessed to have you in my life. And I always just really feel honored to have any conversation I get to have with you. Could you let anybody listening? Where can they find you? Where can they look you up?

Cledra Gross: 27:42

That our church you talked about is equipped for Destiny Church Knightdale that's Equip for destiny that org me personally cli.com I

Laurie Acker: 27:51

love you have the best name because you can actually just have it on the website clay dre.com I

Cledra Gross: 27:55

didn't have the name. Yes, that's awesome. You make them on social media as well. Okay, we'll

Laurie Acker: 28:01

make sure to drop the links in the show notes. And thank you Cleator so much for being with us. What a joy.

Cledra Gross: 28:07

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. All right. Until

Laurie Acker: 28:09

next week, y'all don't forget to tune back in and be like